The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Taqiyya Mockingbird » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:54 pm

Gerald McGrew wrote:
Taqiyya Mockingbird wrote:Also Sprach Gerald:

" You've just demonstrated my point for me...almost perfectly. I offer my impressions of recent events, but since they're not favorable to FtB/Skepchicks/A+, well then I must be against treating women and minorities respectfully!

That's exactly what I described in my post and along you come and unwittingly become my Exhibit A. Thank you very much."


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A Jon Stewart "Oh snap"? You made my day! :tut:

LMAO


It's like a bad case of "This Modern World":

"But come on, what's wrong with gays getting married, really? "

"Why do you hate America?"


WTF?

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by A Hermit » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:07 pm

Gerald McGrew wrote: Again you attempt to rewrite history. Why was RW blamed for declining attendance? Because she was part of the group that was claiming TAM was an unsafe environment for women. She specifically stated, "This is quite obviously not a safe space for me or for other women who want to be free of the gendered slurs and sexual threats and come-ons we experience in our day-to-day lives". In a USA Today article, she said about the freethought community, "The biggest lesson I have learned over the years is that it is not a safe space and we have a lot of growing to do". Gosh, I can't imagine why anyone would be blaming her for giving women the impression that the conferences were worse than the regular world when it comes to sexual harassment.
If you read the whole thing, instead of selectively quoting, she made it clear it was no worse than everyday life and "not a 'safe space" she meant there was more that could be done, like having a simple no-harassment policy.

More importantly there is absolutely NO evidence that her remarks had anything to do with declining attandance at TAM. In fact, she and her orgnization were raising money to send more women to TAm and encouraging more women to go to TAM. So Grothe's unfounded chharges were a double slap in the face.

Yeah, it's just awful when people wear t-shirts that say "I feel safe" and "I'm not one of you".


There was a lot more to it than a t-shirt.
LOL! PZ told me if I posted one more time about that subject, he would ban me from his blog. Your rhetoric isn't matching up to reality.
Because by that point you were simply trolling.
What's wrong with that? Surely no one is taking that position that fat ugly women don't exist? Or that if one were to hit on me in a bar, I am not allowed to refuse?
This is the kind of strawmaning that gets you in trouble. The problems with your weak analogy were explained to you
Where's elevator guy? Where's the documented rape threats she's received from members of the atheist community?
oh yeah I forgot "the bitchez be LIARS!!!!11!!!

That all you got?
I'm simply citing her as one example among many of why there is a general impression that the FtB/Skepchick/A+ group is irrational on the issue of feminism.
Where "irrationality" means not blindly accepting your blinkered, self serving interpretation of things....
Seriously? FFS...you just keep making my point for me.
It's not a hard question....
LOL! How big of him. But not for anything specific about his W. Bush "you're either with us or against us" BS?
Yres, I posted the link for you earlier....
TF was specifically told he could blog about anything, there would be no attempt to control the content of his blog, and he was encouraged to "rip into" other FtB'ers. He just wasn't told that feminism was a third rail issue.
And if I invite someone to a party and they walk in the door and start insulting me and all my guests I'll ask them to leave. Same principle applies here; FtB are not obligated to host someone who does nothing but use the opportunity to shit on them.
Oh my! A forum that has rules about behaviour!!!11!!1eleventy!11!11 What kind of fascist organization does that?!

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=3449

Oops...
Actually, I think I've made my point extremely well. I merely noted that the view among some people that the FtB/Skepchick group is irrational about feminism and is largely intolerant of dissent is based on multiple documented incidents and statements by several members of that group.


You;ve done nothing but whine and invent strawmen.

But thanks for playing.... :bored:

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by A Hermit » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:12 pm

hadespussercats wrote:I don't blame Jen McChreight for quitting her blog if the comments were triggering her chronic depression. I'm not sure why she didn't just keep on writing, and shut off comments-- but maybe she has her own reasons.
Well she does explain them here...http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/201 ... e-for-now/
I simply no longer love blogging. Instead of feeling gleeful anticipation when writing up a post, I feel nothing but dread. There’s a group of people out there (google the ironic term FtBullies to find them) devoted to hating me, my friends, and even people I’m just vaguely associated with. I can no longer write anything without my words getting twisted, misrepresented, and quotemined. I wake up every morning to abusive comments, tweets, and emails about how I’m a slut, prude, ugly, fat, feminazi, retard, bitch, and cunt (just to name a few). If I block people who are twisting my words or sending verbal abuse, I receive an even larger wave of nonsensical hate about how I’m a slut, prude, feminazi, retard, bitch, cunt who hates freedom of speech (because the Constitution forces me to listen to people on Twitter). This morning I had to delete dozens of comments of people imitating my identity making graphic, lewd, degrading sexual comments about my personal life. In the past, multiple people have threatened to contact my employer with “evidence” that I’m a bad scientist (because I’m a feminist) to try to destroy my job. I’m constantly worried that the abuse will soon spread to my loved ones.

I just can’t take it anymore.
I don't understand what this has to do with reactions to A+.
That stuff Jen describes? that's been the reaction to A+ in some quarters...

Some people here seem to think that's not a problem. :banghead: ..

To put it in context, read this: http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/201 ... f-atheism/

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Gallstones » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:16 pm

Robert_S wrote:
Sean Hayden wrote:Absolutely, and I'm right to be sick of the amount of attention being paid to problems that don't warrant it.

I can handle what that may say about me. I think it should be said though, and often now until such a time that every other week a significant part of the little web I care about isn't consumed by a handful of people -with great support networks- triggering undue emotion and wasting efforts.
You mean how people bitching about Skepchics/FtB and now A+ all over the goddamn skeptic/atheist intertube space?

Few people here would know or care what they were doing if some people weren't so fucking obsessed with that crowd. I swear some of the anti-A+&co stuff looks like the digital equivalent of dropping frogs down their shirts.

I do read some stuff that sounds whiney out of the Skepchick/FtB/A+ folks, but I read about 10x more whinging about the whinging. OMFG!!!! SOMEONE IZ OVERREACTING ON TEH INTERNETZZ!11!!one! SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!!!! :panic: :hairfire: :panic: :cry: :panic:

And here I am whinging about whinging about whinging. It's getting fucking surreal now. :timewarp:
I like you Robert.
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Bella Fortuna » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:24 pm

It's pretty impossible not to like Robert.
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Gerald McGrew » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:03 am

A Hermit wrote:If you read the whole thing, instead of selectively quoting, she made it clear it was no worse than everyday life and "not a 'safe space" she meant there was more that could be done, like having a simple no-harassment policy.
So according to RW, everyday life is not a safe space for women? How ever do they manage?
More importantly there is absolutely NO evidence that her remarks had anything to do with declining attandance at TAM. In fact, she and her orgnization were raising money to send more women to TAm and encouraging more women to go to TAM. So Grothe's unfounded chharges were a double slap in the face.
Riiiiiiight. It was just a coincidence that female attendance dropped 30-40% after she said those things.
There was a lot more to it than a t-shirt.
The offending, tear-inducing t-shirt is yet another incident that people can cite as an example of the hyper-reactionary, irrational behaviors of the FtB/Skepchicks/A+ crowd.
Because by that point you were simply trolling....This is the kind of strawmaning that gets you in trouble. The problems with your weak analogy were explained to you
LOL! I'll allow that pathetic response to speak for itself.
oh yeah I forgot "the bitchez be LIARS!!!!11!!!

Wow, you just keep getting worse and worse, don't you? You asked for examples of RW's accusations being accepted without question. I provided some. If all you can do in response is the above, again that speaks for itself.
It's not a hard question....
Again, the fact that me merely suggesting that RW is not immune from criticism caused you to immediately imply that I therefore think she deserves rape threats is a perfect illustration of the irrationality surrounding this subject people are talking about.
Yres, I posted the link for you earlier....
AFAIK, not to where he specifically apologized for saying everyone is either with him or against him.
And if I invite someone to a party and they walk in the door and start insulting me and all my guests I'll ask them to leave. Same principle applies here; FtB are not obligated to host someone who does nothing but use the opportunity to shit on them.
What if you told that person they could say anything they wanted, including ripping on others at the party?
Oh my! A forum that has rules about behaviour!!!11!!1eleventy!11!11 What kind of fascist organization does that?!
You just keep digging that hole deeper, don't you? You asked where anyone at A+ had suggested monitoring people on the internet, and I provided an example of exactly that. You can't even bring yourself to admit that I was right on that point, can you?
You;ve done nothing but whine and invent strawmen.
In case you haven't noticed (but most others have), I'm the one in this conversation who's actually quoting the people in question and backing my assertions up with examples. You OTOH are behaving like an 8 year old who can't ever admit when they're wrong.
If you don't like being called "stupid", then stop saying stupid things.

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by orpheus » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:30 am

Gerald McGrew wrote:
A Hermit wrote:If you read the whole thing, instead of selectively quoting, she made it clear it was no worse than everyday life and "not a 'safe space" she meant there was more that could be done, like having a simple no-harassment policy.
So according to RW, everyday life is not a safe space for women? How ever do they manage?
More importantly there is absolutely NO evidence that her remarks had anything to do with declining attandance at TAM. In fact, she and her orgnization were raising money to send more women to TAm and encouraging more women to go to TAM. So Grothe's unfounded chharges were a double slap in the face.
Riiiiiiight. It was just a coincidence that female attendance dropped 30-40% after she said those things.
There was a lot more to it than a t-shirt.
The offending, tear-inducing t-shirt is yet another incident that people can cite as an example of the hyper-reactionary, irrational behaviors of the FtB/Skepchicks/A+ crowd.
Because by that point you were simply trolling....This is the kind of strawmaning that gets you in trouble. The problems with your weak analogy were explained to you
LOL! I'll allow that pathetic response to speak for itself.
oh yeah I forgot "the bitchez be LIARS!!!!11!!!

Wow, you just keep getting worse and worse, don't you? You asked for examples of RW's accusations being accepted without question. I provided some. If all you can do in response is the above, again that speaks for itself.
It's not a hard question....
Again, the fact that me merely suggesting that RW is not immune from criticism caused you to immediately imply that I therefore think she deserves rape threats is a perfect illustration of the irrationality surrounding this subject people are talking about.
Yres, I posted the link for you earlier....
AFAIK, not to where he specifically apologized for saying everyone is either with him or against him.
And if I invite someone to a party and they walk in the door and start insulting me and all my guests I'll ask them to leave. Same principle applies here; FtB are not obligated to host someone who does nothing but use the opportunity to shit on them.
What if you told that person they could say anything they wanted, including ripping on others at the party?
Oh my! A forum that has rules about behaviour!!!11!!1eleventy!11!11 What kind of fascist organization does that?!
You just keep digging that hole deeper, don't you? You asked where anyone at A+ had suggested monitoring people on the internet, and I provided an example of exactly that. You can't even bring yourself to admit that I was right on that point, can you?
You;ve done nothing but whine and invent strawmen.
In case you haven't noticed (but most others have), I'm the one in this conversation who's actually quoting the people in question and backing my assertions up with examples. You OTOH are behaving like an 8 year old who can't ever admit when they're wrong.
:this:

Sorry, Hermit, but he's right.
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by hadespussercats » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:41 am

A Hermit wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:I don't blame Jen McChreight for quitting her blog if the comments were triggering her chronic depression. I'm not sure why she didn't just keep on writing, and shut off comments-- but maybe she has her own reasons.
Well she does explain them here...http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/201 ... e-for-now/
I simply no longer love blogging. Instead of feeling gleeful anticipation when writing up a post, I feel nothing but dread. There’s a group of people out there (google the ironic term FtBullies to find them) devoted to hating me, my friends, and even people I’m just vaguely associated with. I can no longer write anything without my words getting twisted, misrepresented, and quotemined. I wake up every morning to abusive comments, tweets, and emails about how I’m a slut, prude, ugly, fat, feminazi, retard, bitch, and cunt (just to name a few). If I block people who are twisting my words or sending verbal abuse, I receive an even larger wave of nonsensical hate about how I’m a slut, prude, feminazi, retard, bitch, cunt who hates freedom of speech (because the Constitution forces me to listen to people on Twitter). This morning I had to delete dozens of comments of people imitating my identity making graphic, lewd, degrading sexual comments about my personal life. In the past, multiple people have threatened to contact my employer with “evidence” that I’m a bad scientist (because I’m a feminist) to try to destroy my job. I’m constantly worried that the abuse will soon spread to my loved ones.

I just can’t take it anymore.
I don't understand what this has to do with reactions to A+.
That stuff Jen describes? that's been the reaction to A+ in some quarters...

Some people here seem to think that's not a problem. :banghead: ..

To put it in context, read this: http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/201 ... f-atheism/
I did a while ago.

What I was saying is that I don't see why people who have issues with A+ are targeting the fact that she stepped down from blogging. A+ has a forum of its own, which is up and running. Whether McChreight keeps her blog up or not doesn't affect that.

A+ isn't an individual-- it's (theoretically, at least) a movement. It should be able to stand the abuse. But an individual woman fighting depression is smart to draw boundaries she can live with.

All I was saying earlier is that if she loves writing for her blog as much as she says, why not keep writing and shut off comments? Stop reading emails?
I'm not saying she should have done that-- it's got nothing to do with me. But it's a move many bloggers have made to deal with internet nastiness.
Of course, you lose a lot of hits when you shut down comments. But some people don't write for the hits.

I've seen this term over at A+ (I guess it's popular, but I hadn't encountered it before)-- "sticking the Flounce"
Is she flouncing?
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Robert_S » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:14 am

I flounced over there. :oops: http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic ... 6502#p6502

It was a moment of clarity. I'm sure it will pass.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by SteveB » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:16 am

Robert_S wrote:I flounced over there. :oops: http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic ... 6502#p6502

It was a moment of clarity. I'm sure it will pass.
You have to stick it, as per their rules.
Twit, twat, twaddle.
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Bella Fortuna » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:18 am

Robert_S wrote:I flounced over there. :oops: http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic ... 6502#p6502

It was a moment of clarity. I'm sure it will pass.
That's the most sensible thing I've seen in that thread. That place is like Bizarroland.
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Audley Strange » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:43 am

Robert_S wrote:I flounced over there. :oops: http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic ... 6502#p6502

It was a moment of clarity. I'm sure it will pass.
In Jewish mysticism there is a sphere of influence which sits outside the tree of life which is called Daath. According to some traditions Daath is the realm of knowledge, it spans the bridge or abyss between the lower planes of existence and enlightenment. Since we cannot apprehend things directly Daath or Knowledge does not exist as such until enlightenment which is supposedly union with the godhead and thus true knowledge of the entirety of the universe etc.

Anyway Daath is an interesting place. It is, in essence a place where the seeker arrives and is met with all available options, the choices are limitless and the Lord of this domain, Choronzon has been specifically tasked with placing a barrier between man and the godhead. (Bear with me I'm going somewhere with this.)

So Daath exists to give the seeker the choice to do whatever they see fit. However this is the trap. Faced with the freedom of infinite paths, they become crippled by uncertainty and they become stuck, lost in the Abyss, constantly doubting themselves and their motivations and their choices. No guide, no leader, no one to tell them what to do or help them. Lots of little seekers wandering round a maze of self doubt, self indulgence, apathy and good intentions.

The moment of clarity is the end of that phase and I think that website is a great little Daath.
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Robert_S » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:57 am

Audley Strange wrote:
Robert_S wrote:I flounced over there. :oops: http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic ... 6502#p6502

It was a moment of clarity. I'm sure it will pass.
In Jewish mysticism there is a sphere of influence which sits outside the tree of life which is called Daath. According to some traditions Daath is the realm of knowledge, it spans the bridge or abyss between the lower planes of existence and enlightenment. Since we cannot apprehend things directly Daath or Knowledge does not exist as such until enlightenment which is supposedly union with the godhead and thus true knowledge of the entirety of the universe etc.

Anyway Daath is an interesting place. It is, in essence a place where the seeker arrives and is met with all available options, the choices are limitless and the Lord of this domain, Choronzon has been specifically tasked with placing a barrier between man and the godhead. (Bear with me I'm going somewhere with this.)

So Daath exists to give the seeker the choice to do whatever they see fit. However this is the trap. Faced with the freedom of infinite paths, they become crippled by uncertainty and they become stuck, lost in the Abyss, constantly doubting themselves and their motivations and their choices. No guide, no leader, no one to tell them what to do or help them. Lots of little seekers wandering round a maze of self doubt, self indulgence, apathy and good intentions.

The moment of clarity is the end of that phase and I think that website is a great little Daath.

I like it!!!

It reminds me of this song:



"He saw both sides of everything and hound he couldn't move"
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by A Hermit » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:14 am

Gerald McGrew wrote: So according to RW, everyday life is not a safe space for women?
In the sense that they tend to face a lot of harassment and bullshit that they shouldn't have to put up with, yes. Deacon Duncan described it as "sexual panhandling". one or two little incidents may not seem so bad but when you have to put up with it constantly it wears you down.
Riiiiiiight. It was just a coincidence that female attendance dropped 30-40% after she said those things.


Well yes actually, it probably was. Do you have any actual evidence to suggest otherwise? That it wasnt the economy, the timing of the event, the lack of anything new in the way of events or speakers...

The offending, tear-inducing t-shirt is yet another incident that people can cite as an example of the hyper-reactionary, irrational behaviors of the FtB/Skepchicks/A+ crowd.
Again the T-shirt was just the last straw, there was a weekend long campaign of bullying that went on. Oh, that's right, I forgot...it;s only bullying when it happens on PZ's blog....
Wow, you just keep getting worse and worse, don't you? You asked for examples of RW's accusations being accepted without question. I provided some. If all you can do in response is the above, again that speaks for itself.
The elevator story is hardly an extraordinary claim; I don;t need forensic evidence to accept it as true any more than I need it to accept the claim that someone had dinner last night...it happens all the time and I don;t go around assuming people are lying just because they don't have lab reports to back up everything they say. As for the rape threats....http://skepchick.org/wp-content/uploads ... .00-PM.png

Again, the fact that me merely suggesting that RW is not immune from criticism caused you to immediately imply that I therefore think she deserves rape threats is a perfect illustration of the irrationality surrounding this subject people are talking about.
You still haven't said that she doesn't deserve them. All you've done is accuse her of lying about them because the last thing you can let yourself do is admit there might be a problem...
AFAIK, not to where he specifically apologized for saying everyone is either with him or against him.
You need to read more carefully, and no I'm not going to post it again just because you were too lazy to read it the first time.
What if you told that person they could say anything they wanted, including ripping on others at the party?
It's my party and I can decide where the line is. If I ask you to stop harassing the other guests and you refuse I have every right to kick you out. Same goes for blog platforms; no one is obligate to give a platform to someone who treats them like shit. Thunderfoot doesn't have some special right to other people's space. Oh and he's not immune to criticism any more than Watson is...
You just keep digging that hole deeper, don't you? You asked where anyone at A+ had suggested monitoring people on the internet, and I provided an example of exactly that. You can't even bring yourself to admit that I was right on that point, can you?
Because you did noting of the kind; all that part says is that if you are known to be pissing on people in another forum you won't be welcome in this one. If you're rude to me in a bar I don't have to invite you into my house...same principle here. That isn't "monitoring" anyone, and there's no "banishment". That's just you being hysterical.

But this is what you do isn't it? You take stuff out of context, twist it, rewrite it with new, prejudicial language to make it sound like something it's not and then pretend that you're the one being wronged when someone calls you on your bullshit.

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Re: The Atheism Plus "movement" -- good, bad, ugly?

Post by Audley Strange » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:16 am

Robert_S wrote:
Audley Strange wrote:
Robert_S wrote:I flounced over there. :oops: http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic ... 6502#p6502

It was a moment of clarity. I'm sure it will pass.
In Jewish mysticism there is a sphere of influence which sits outside the tree of life which is called Daath. According to some traditions Daath is the realm of knowledge, it spans the bridge or abyss between the lower planes of existence and enlightenment. Since we cannot apprehend things directly Daath or Knowledge does not exist as such until enlightenment which is supposedly union with the godhead and thus true knowledge of the entirety of the universe etc.

Anyway Daath is an interesting place. It is, in essence a place where the seeker arrives and is met with all available options, the choices are limitless and the Lord of this domain, Choronzon has been specifically tasked with placing a barrier between man and the godhead. (Bear with me I'm going somewhere with this.)

So Daath exists to give the seeker the choice to do whatever they see fit. However this is the trap. Faced with the freedom of infinite paths, they become crippled by uncertainty and they become stuck, lost in the Abyss, constantly doubting themselves and their motivations and their choices. No guide, no leader, no one to tell them what to do or help them. Lots of little seekers wandering round a maze of self doubt, self indulgence, apathy and good intentions.

The moment of clarity is the end of that phase and I think that website is a great little Daath.

I like it!!!

It reminds me of this song:



"He saw both sides of everything and hound he couldn't move"
Never heard that before, excellent choice for the hour of the woof. Cheers Robert.
"What started as a legitimate effort by the townspeople of Salem to identify, capture and kill those who did Satan's bidding quickly deteriorated into a witch hunt" Army Man

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