You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

[Rum]

The sound aspect is an interesting one. Harsh sounds with lots of consonants sound more aggressive as Robert says, but there are also more subtle factors. For example an old American friend of mine used to say that the word 'arse' said in an English accent was far more insulting and dismissive of the target in question that 'ass' said in an American one.

To confuse this word even more of course 'ass' was used as a very mild insult in generations gone by here in Britain and refereed to the donkey like animal that is an ass. ...

[Audley Strange]

Hmm I wonder if the same applies to shit and shite.

[John_fi_Skye]

Another abhorrent one I used to hear at times from the teenagers I used to work with was "Flid". If they expanded that to its fullest extent (the way they could say that "spastic" was the expansion of "spazz") it would be "flidamide" - in other words, it was their mishearing of "thalydomide".

"You're a flid" thus meant something like "you're a grotesquely deformed creature". Ghastly. Not to be tolerated. Not to go unchallenged.

[Audley Strange]

Another abhorrent one I used to hear at times from the teenagers I used to work with was "Flid". If they expanded that to its fullest extent (the way they could say that "spastic" was the expansion of "spazz") it would be "flidamide" - in other words, it was their mishearing of "thalydomide".

"You're a flid" thus meant something like "you're a grotesquely deformed creature". Ghastly. Not to be tolerated. Not to go unchallenged.

I remember when spastic became the flavour of the month and I remember why. It was something that offended me when it happened but the absurdity of the reaction from amongst my peers was intoxicating. Perhaps others will remember it.

It was Blue Peter's fault. Yep that middle class bastion of liberal status quo is wot dun it m'lud. In their attempt to raise awareness about disability they started a campaign for care homes using a severely handicapped man called Joey Deacon. This was pure emotional blackmail, but it did raise awareness that someone who was severely physically disabled was not necessarily mentally deficient. It also raised a lot of hilarity amongst children, many of them who actively supported the campaign. They were not the ones suffering from cognitive dissonance. For a time "joey" or "joey deacon" became the word that was soon replaced by generic spastic and then spazz and his actions and behaviours were aped by those children who became adults who taught their children that.

Sadly. However it is representative of the wooly headed thinking of do-gooders with more fervour than caution.

[John_fi_Skye]

Another abhorrent one I used to hear at times from the teenagers I used to work with was "Flid". If they expanded that to its fullest extent (the way they could say that "spastic" was the expansion of "spazz") it would be "flidamide" - in other words, it was their mishearing of "thalydomide".

"You're a flid" thus meant something like "you're a grotesquely deformed creature". Ghastly. Not to be tolerated. Not to go unchallenged.

I remember when spastic became the flavour of the month and I remember why. It was something that offended me when it happened but the absurdity of the reaction from amongst my peers was intoxicating. Perhaps others will remember it.

It was Blue Peter's fault. Yep that middle class bastion of liberal status quo is wot dun it m'lud. In their attempt to raise awareness about disability they started a campaign for care homes using a severely handicapped man called Joey Deacon. This was pure emotional blackmail, but it did raise awareness that someone who was severely physically disabled was not necessarily mentally deficient. It also raised a lot of hilarity amongst children, many of them who actively supported the campaign. They were not the ones suffering from cognitive dissonance. For a time "joey" or "joey deacon" became the word that was soon replaced by generic spastic and then spazz and his actions and behaviours were aped by those children who became adults who taught their children that.

Sadly. However it is representative of the wooly headed thinking of do-gooders with more fervour than caution.

Yep. I remember teenagers using the term "Joey" in that way. Then there was "Benny", which was taken from an intellectually limited character in a soap - was it Emmerdale? "You're a Benny!" And then there was the time a class of mine studied Of Mice and Men, by Hemingway, and a big, lumbering, rather slow lad called Stuart was suddenly and forever after always called "Lennie".

Have I wandered completely off-topic?

[Brian Peacock]

@Audley-- Thanks!

I don't know-- I've seen a pussy take a serious beating and still get the job done! I'd like to see a dick attempt the same, without getting "over-"emotional.

Funny, you spell "sissy" as "cissy"-- brings a whole new meaning to "cis-gendered."

How do you feel about men being dicks?

Oh, and a general question-- is "bastard" really gendered as an insult? I've heard people say "bastard" is the male version of "bitch." But, the word "bastard" wasn't gendered in its original meaning, i don't think. Why aren't women bastards?

Slut and slapper are terms I've heard de-gendered. Men or women can be cunts or twats, and I don't see this as any more (or less) insulting than cock or dick when used by or applied to a man or a woman. Bastard is from Old French and was used originally, and specifically, to refer to the acknowledged child of a nobleman by a woman who wasn't his wife. The bastard could make a claim against the father's estate so the term hasn't always been associated with the social stigma of extra-marital carnal knowledge.

Spunk is OK - one can have spunk, or be spunky regardless of gender. However, to say that someone is, "A waste of spunk," is (generally) not OK, and goes to show that the words themselves have no intrinsic offensiveness or power - it is the context that is important. Like Rum mentioned, the language of barrack room may not be considered appropriate language for the Sunday dinner table.

However, I think Rum's example also hints at something else; namely that language boundaries can be most treacherous to navigate when they transgress social boundaries, say between the wealthy and those they employ, or more broadly between those with high and low social status. Removing terms and phrases that may convey contemptuous reproach, scorn, bawdiness, or abuse neutralises and disambiguates communications, to some extent. There is a natural comparison here in the way in which accents and dialect are also often neutralised and disambiguated in cross-group communication (the 'telephone voice' for example). The other thing Rum's example illuminates is that those with higher social status generally get to set the conditions by which communication takes place, and of course this is where people's bleating about this-or-that so-called inappropriate term or phrase often comes into play; they are often only seeking to assert some social superiority by setting conditions on communication and trying to get others to conform to - thus fishing for a tacit endorsement of their self-ascribed social superiority. You'll probably be able to guess what I think of those kind of people should do, and with what.

[Audley Strange]

Yep. I remember teenagers using the term "Joey" in that way. Then there was "Benny", which was taken from an intellectually limited character in a soap - was it Emmerdale? "You're a Benny!" And then there was the time a class of mine studied Of Mice and Men, by Hemingway, and a big, lumbering, rather slow lad called Stuart was suddenly and forever after always called "Lennie".

Have I wandered completely off-topic?

Crossroads, and no I think we are still wobbling on the perimeter. It's about what words are offensive. Granted it started out discussing differences in perceptions of genital based slurs, however I think it relevant to consider that most of these were used by kids who were in the main quite aware of the difference. My friend pointed out that humour generally only becomes offensive when it hits home. I recall the kids in my school feverishly trying to help various Blue Peter appeals, but it didn't stop them having a laugh about "brillo pad head" as they named some kid with leukaemia. I'm not saying it's in good taste, but I don't think it particularly malicious at it's heart, though kids are cruel so obviously it could be used so. But unlike racial epithets which were specifically weaponised and used with the intent to demean and oppress. I don't think any other words we use as swear words have such gravity, though I know some would like to think otherwise.

[Pappa]

Perhaps because a known bastard was usually a child that was acknowleded, and a nobleman rarely had a reason to acknowledge an illegitimate daughter but they might need to acknowledge a son for purposes of heredity.

Ah! I thought being a bastard was just the illegitimate conception, not subsequent recognition.

Is "bastard" different from "love-child" then? I think "love-children" were traditionally seen as having personality markers of their sinful birth-- impetuousness, lustiness, quick temper, and so forth...

There's some class differences that are represented in the words used for illegitimacy. A working class illegitimate child would probably have been called a "get" in the past (where "git" originates I think.... from "begotten"), but an upper class illegitimate male child that was acknowledged by his father would be a bastard. I'm pretty sure a bastard would have been entitled to the inheritance if he had no legitimate older brothers.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

The sound aspect is an interesting one. Harsh sounds with lots of consonants sound more aggressive as Robert says, but there are also more subtle factors. For example an old American friend of mine used to say that the word 'arse' said in an English accent was far more insulting and dismissive of the target in question that 'ass' said in an American one.

To confuse this word even more of course 'ass' was used as a very mild insult in generations gone by here in Britain and refereed to the donkey like animal that is an ass. ...

'Ass is a dreadful tinny word, not at all like 'arse' - a good woody sort of word

[Brian Peacock]

The sound aspect is an interesting one. Harsh sounds with lots of consonants sound more aggressive as Robert says, but there are also more subtle factors. For example an old American friend of mine used to say that the word 'arse' said in an English accent was far more insulting and dismissive of the target in question that 'ass' said in an American one.

To confuse this word even more of course 'ass' was used as a very mild insult in generations gone by here in Britain and refereed to the donkey like animal that is an ass. ...

'Ass is a dreadful tinny word, not at all like 'arse' - a good woody sort of word

Aye. Similarly we shouldn't let the impoverished single finger usurp our fine, traditional British 'giving someone the Veez.'

[hadespussercats]

The sound aspect is an interesting one. Harsh sounds with lots of consonants sound more aggressive as Robert says, but there are also more subtle factors. For example an old American friend of mine used to say that the word 'arse' said in an English accent was far more insulting and dismissive of the target in question that 'ass' said in an American one.

To confuse this word even more of course 'ass' was used as a very mild insult in generations gone by here in Britain and refereed to the donkey like animal that is an ass. ...

'Ass is a dreadful tinny word, not at all like 'arse' - a good woody sort of word

Aye. Similarly we shouldn't let the impoverished single finger usurp our fine, traditional British 'giving someone the Veez.'

The tinniness is what makes "ass" a good expletive.

I think it was Rum who mentioned that the sound of the word "fuck" is what makes it offensive. I wouldn't say that, but I think it's an excellent expletive. I really can't think of a better one for when you've stubbed your toe, or hit your thumb with a hammer: ffffffffffFFFFFFUUUUUUUUCK! The sound actually helps manage the pain. And then there's that hard, clean release of the K sound at the end.

Some words sound like they should be offensive. In a few years, we're probably going to have to limit our swearing around the boy-o-- not because we want to teach him that those words are wrong, but that we understand it'll be a while before he knows there are good places to say them and bad places to say them. So I've been thinking up replacements.

Freak! Freaking, Frickin', Frak-- all are good (though I'm not a huge BG fan, so the last one feels phoney)
Punt.
Sugar-- this was one of my dad's substitutions for shit-- so effective he's kept using it even though he'll swear a blue streak otherwise. "Ah, shhhhhhugar."

What do you guys think? Oh, and do you think it's wretched to even censor ourselves a little around our kid? Too much bourgeois morality? How did those of you with or around kids deal with it?

[hadespussercats]

Another abhorrent one I used to hear at times from the teenagers I used to work with was "Flid". If they expanded that to its fullest extent (the way they could say that "spastic" was the expansion of "spazz") it would be "flidamide" - in other words, it was their mishearing of "thalydomide".

"You're a flid" thus meant something like "you're a grotesquely deformed creature". Ghastly. Not to be tolerated. Not to go unchallenged.

I'd never heard it before now-- saw the word in Tatt's thread and wasn't sure what to make of it.

[hadespussercats]

Perhaps because a known bastard was usually a child that was acknowleded, and a nobleman rarely had a reason to acknowledge an illegitimate daughter but they might need to acknowledge a son for purposes of heredity.

Ah! I thought being a bastard was just the illegitimate conception, not subsequent recognition.

Is "bastard" different from "love-child" then? I think "love-children" were traditionally seen as having personality markers of their sinful birth-- impetuousness, lustiness, quick temper, and so forth...

There's some class differences that are represented in the words used for illegitimacy. A working class illegitimate child would probably have been called a "get" in the past (where "git" originates I think.... from "begotten"), but an upper class illegitimate male child that was acknowledged by his father would be a bastard. I'm pretty sure a bastard would have been entitled to the inheritance if he had no legitimate older brothers.

So "love-child" isn't a term used over there?

It doesn't sound like an insult. But it sure ain't a compliment. When Schwartzeneggar's illegitimate child turned up, everyone (news, tabloids) kept saying it was his "love-child." What the hell does that mean? And what does that make his other kids?

[hadespussercats]

The sound aspect is an interesting one. Harsh sounds with lots of consonants sound more aggressive as Robert says, but there are also more subtle factors. For example an old American friend of mine used to say that the word 'arse' said in an English accent was far more insulting and dismissive of the target in question that 'ass' said in an American one.

To confuse this word even more of course 'ass' was used as a very mild insult in generations gone by here in Britain and refereed to the donkey like animal that is an ass. ...

'Ass is a dreadful tinny word, not at all like 'arse' - a good woody sort of word

Aye. Similarly we shouldn't let the impoverished single finger usurp our fine, traditional British 'giving someone the Veez.'

This is a great gesture for over here, because there are many places you could use it without people realizing what it means-- though it's clearly not a friendly gesture.

Reminds me of the fun Dave Chappelle had, back in the day, saying the word "Skeet" on TV, "because white people don't know what it means yet."

Or that Texas high school where the kids kept posing while doing the Shocker (two in the pink, one in the stink), and it got published before the school admins figured out what was going on.

Or when Seth MacFarlane did that little bit with a sign about the Dyslexics Society presenting Chevy Chase in "Felch."

Semi-secret obscenities-- you have to be in the know to catch the insult, which means it probably isn't aimed at you...

[hadespussercats]

Funny, you spell "sissy" as "cissy"-- brings a whole new meaning to "cis-gendered."

Oh you noticed. I suppose being labelled cis-gendered is shorter than "not one of the following walking abominations of sexual shame", it just seems to me another needless taxonomy, it's the anal bureaucratisation of civility which serves to define us by our differences rather than commonalities.

I don't know. If you (not YOU-- general you) spend any amount of time talking about transsexuality and/or related LGBTQ concerns, you'll find the need to be able to refer to people who identify gender-wise with their biological body, and differing degrees of being heterosexual, homosexual, bi, or any number of other ways to feel that get rather involved to describe once you open the door to the notion that gender and biology and sexuality can operate separately.

So, in that circumstance, having terms like cisgender or cissexual can be handy-- particularly since they don't carry the judgement of being either "normal" or "other."

If you aren't in one of the "other" groups, and you don't spend much time talking to people who are, or discussing their concerns, then those terms wouldn't seem so useful.

I think it's a wonderful idea, everybody getting together and trying to love one another right now-- defining us by our commonalities, as you say, rather than our differences. The trouble with that, though, is that that approach can sometimes serve to just sweep differences under the rug-- to make the people who are different feel like they don't really exist in society, and that there's no language that would enable them to discuss why that is.

How do you feel about men being dicks?

Personally? Better than being about men feeling dicks.

That's where you and I differ.

I see nothing wrong with it. It's shorthand. Any dick that goes all pussy about being called a dick is a cunt.

I mean isn't that sentence fucking awesome?

Yes. Yes it is.