You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by hadespussercats » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:45 am

rasetsu wrote:...snip...
Having studied four languages, and studied the slang and sexual voccabularies of a handful more, it's interesting what is preserved and what isn't. I think those who argue the slang terms are a result of a specific culture's tendencies would be refuted by the commonality across languages, but that's more impression than rigorous analysis. The only largely diverging term that sticks out is, in some languages (Arabic for one), referring to someone's mother's cunt is the equivalent of the English cunt. (And, in contrast to my earlier statement, if I recall correctly, there are quite a few Arabic insults relating to shoes.)
If you buy into psychological interpretations of Grimm (Bettelheim and such), shoes represent the vulva/vagina-- so Cinderella's tiny foot in its slipper meant something else entirely to the prince. I think the Cinderella story might have Arab roots. ?

I should check. Still, the idea might shed some light on those shoe insults.
rasetsu wrote:Oh, yes. And I remember being in the hospital for suicide once, and playing trivial pursuit with my family. My sister, whose not the brightest, made some silly answer, and her husband slapped his forehead and exclaimed, "Are you mental?!" Which caused a few eyes to widen, but it was probably not appropriate. But nobody took offense.
I hate those moments of awkward silence while family tries to reorganize around a word like that. That's part of the reason I keep using these words myself-- I'm trying to keep a hold on normal for myself and the people I talk with who know my diagnosis.

Doesn't always work out. Last Xmas I was talking about my crazy neighbor upstairs, and my father-in-law decided it would be cute to slide his glasses down his nose and shoot me a mocking look over them.

I hate my in-laws.
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by hadespussercats » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:50 am

rasetsu wrote:Speaking of offensive, I find many heterosexuals take great offense to my referring to them as "breeders."


...
Eh. It's apt.

I don't mind the name. But it's always a little surprising if I go with my kid to meet up with J at his work downtown. No doting grannies and smiles for the baby. Just a whole lot of stinkeye and being forced off the sidewalk.

oh well.
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by hadespussercats » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:52 am

rasetsu wrote:...
Recently a moderator, female, referred to myself and another woman as "buttbuddies." When I pointed out that it was a homophobic slur, she attempted to defend it's use by pointing out that women can engage in anal sex. I was like, wtf?
There's a woman who is missing the concept. :roll:
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by Pappa » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:22 am

It is true that certain words are only offensive inside certain people's heads, but then if that weren't the case, we wouldn't use them in their derogatory senses. Describing someone as a "stupid cunt" only works because the word cunt carries some power in our culture. Obviously, this doesn't apply when words are simply used to punctuate speech, or in places when the words have become so common and devalued of offensive that they have other uses. In some parts of the south of England "cunt" is a term of endearment among friends and means something like "mate". It's used in ways like, "Oh, he's a nice cunt".

Mary Whitehouse claimed that the reason "fuck" was so offensive was because of the particular sound of the word? Well, that's obviously a load of bollocks or we'd probably find the word "duck" a little offensive too. But obviously, everyone and their dog knows it's not the sound of a word that makes it offensive. It's a combination of its meaning and the cultural history of the word. One of the interesting things about obscenities in English is their evolution. Very often they follow a similar pattern of being a perfectly acceptable word that gradually falls out of favour. The path the words take can be seen in the history of the word "vulgar". Vulgar used to mean something like "ordinary", but now it means something like "offensive". Other, similar words are in the middle of the same transition. "Popular" (think "popular press", "pop music" as opposed to "cultured"), "common" (think "common as muck"). All of English's four letter words used to be normal, everyday descriptive speech, but they gradually fell out of favour. The same can be seen in words like "hussy" - used to mean "housewife", "tart" - used to be a way of describing a woman as attractive.... and lots more I can't remember right now.

It's interesting that offensive words seem to carry so much more weight in the US than they do over here.... you really could say cunt at a middle class dinner partly here and get away with it, though there might be some nervous laughter from some quarters. The US went through a particularly anal phase in the 50s. We have 50s US prudishness to thank for "chicken drumsticks" and "light meat"/"dark meat", because saying "breast" or "leg" was unacceptable in polite company. I'm not sure how much it's to do with the more recent civil rights history, or general concern about the offensive weight of words, but "nigger" is definitely more acceptable here than in the US too (though I do remember an media-fueled drama that suggested it's taken more serious here too a few years ago... courtesy of Big Brother). Of course, some might say the reason "cunt" and "nigger" are a bit more acceptable here is because we're racist misogynists. :hehe:

Which brings me to the gender issue. Do the use of gender-linked obscenities show misogyny or sexism is embedded in our language? It's hard to say, and usually anyone who claims so is not a person who has studied language. I was told by a Spanish friend several years ago that in Castilian Spanish, the word "coñatha" (sp.), meaning "big cunt" is used whenever something bad happens, like you hit your thumb with a hammer.... but when you win €50 on a scratchcard you say whatever the Spanish for "big dick" is. The thing is, I've asked a few Spanish people about this since and nobody's confirmed it yet.

If there was a significant gender bias in our expletives, we should see it, but I don't think it's there. "Cunt" may be the super-expletive in the US, but it's not so much here. It is the worst one you could say on TV, and a lot of people do find it completely unacceptable, but then even those people must hear it an awful lot. If there were a significant gender bias as is claimed, you'd also expect "twat" to be up there with "cunt", while "dick" would be less offensive. That doesn't seem to be the case. "Twat" is a pretty tame one. I can't really see an gender bias in the relative offence rankings of the more generally used offensive words. Also, if there were a gender bias, you'd expect to see that not only were the female-related words more offensive, but that there would be more of them compared to male-related ones. I think "cock", "dick", "pillock", "knob", "wanker", etc. show that's not the case. I've included wanker in the list because it seems to be used almost exclusively in a male context. Also, "tit", "twat", "frig" and "pussy" are not particularly offensive, yet they're female-related words.

I'm not saying there definitely is or was no gender bias in our use of offensive words..... just that if there is or was one, the pattern today doesn't seem to be apparent, and the taboo status of the word "cunt" in the US shouldn't be used as proof that there is one either.

Also, I shouldn't miss an opportunity to promote the word "berk". Almost everyone who uses it doesn't realise it means "cunt" (via "Berkshire Hunt").
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by Animavore » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:33 am

In the new Avengers Loki called Black Widow a "mewling quim" and almost no one noticed because the word has fallen out of usage altogether but at one time it was as bad as saying "cunt". Not that it didn't stop some people complaining :roll:
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by John_fi_Skye » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:43 am

A word from Robert Burns, to the tune of Comin Through the Rye (as per JD Salinger):

Gin a body meet a body,
Comin through the grain:
Gin a body fuck a body -
Cunt's a body's ain.

Which is a much more aphoristic way of saying, "If a person meet another person while walking through a field of crops which can provide cover for two people engaging in activities they'd prefer others not to see, and if those two persons fuck - well, a cunt is a person's own, so it's nobody else's business."

"Body" would be pronounced like "buddy", btw.
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by Audley Strange » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:49 am

@Hades
Dick suggests erection and thus the switching off or the reasoned brain whereas balls represent fertility and power.

Scatological insults may be mammalian in origin. My cat acts out covering food she doesn't like as if it was her litter tray thus "this food is shit" chimps insult each other by actually flinging shit We recognise it as waste.
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:24 pm

who gives a shit anyway?
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by hadespussercats » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:39 pm

Audley Strange wrote:@Hades
Dick suggests erection and thus the switching off or the reasoned brain whereas balls represent fertility and power.

Scatological insults may be mammalian in origin. My cat acts out covering food she doesn't like as if it was her litter tray thus "this food is shit" chimps insult each other by actually flinging shit We recognise it as waste.
My cat does that too!

Your breakdown of the meanings behind dick and balls are pretty much what I think, too-- Saying someone's a dick or acting like a dick is saying they're acting the way we imagine the "little brain" works when it's in charge-- aggressive, cares only for its own ends, etc. And it's pretty easy to personify a penis-- we do it all the time! He's got a mind of his own, and he's a total dick about it.

Still, I do wonder about pussy equaling weak or crybaby or what have you. Yes, I understand women lack the upper body strength that men have (generally), but pussies in and of themselves are pretty damn strong. If we were to personify a pussy as a separate person the way we do a dick, well, a pussy would be this limber, muscular gymnast who could lock you in a full Nelson, or throw you ass over ears.

And balls, well, yes, they provide the spunk, as it were, but they can't take a beating (generally). You know, as i'm writing this, I think I remember Dan Savage discussing this- he decided to substitute "scrotum" instead of calling someone a "pussy" (much like how he calls people "leotards"-- because there's nothing wrong with poking fun at the physically fit. ;) )
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by hadespussercats » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:44 pm

Animavore wrote:In the new Avengers Loki called Black Widow a "mewling quim" and almost no one noticed because the word has fallen out of usage altogether but at one time it was as bad as saying "cunt". Not that it didn't stop some people complaining :roll:
http://cleolinda.livejournal.com/1022287.html
There are these sort of trashy but brilliant historical romances I enjoy, where they use words like "quim."

I appreciate reviving these old words-- I think they're fun. Is that wrong?

And on that subject-

I like that bit of Burns, there, JfS. I'd like to hear you read it. ;)
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by Audley Strange » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:59 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
Audley Strange wrote:@Hades
Dick suggests erection and thus the switching off or the reasoned brain whereas balls represent fertility and power.

Scatological insults may be mammalian in origin. My cat acts out covering food she doesn't like as if it was her litter tray thus "this food is shit" chimps insult each other by actually flinging shit We recognise it as waste.
My cat does that too!

Your breakdown of the meanings behind dick and balls are pretty much what I think, too-- Saying someone's a dick or acting like a dick is saying they're acting the way we imagine the "little brain" works when it's in charge-- aggressive, cares only for its own ends, etc. And it's pretty easy to personify a penis-- we do it all the time! He's got a mind of his own, and he's a total dick about it.

Still, I do wonder about pussy equaling weak or crybaby or what have you. Yes, I understand women lack the upper body strength that men have (generally), but pussies in and of themselves are pretty damn strong. If we were to personify a pussy as a separate person the way we do a dick, well, a pussy would be this limber, muscular gymnast who could lock you in a full Nelson, or throw you ass over ears.

And balls, well, yes, they provide the spunk, as it were, but they can't take a beating (generally). You know, as i'm writing this, I think I remember Dan Savage discussing this- he decided to substitute "scrotum" instead of calling someone a "pussy" (much like how he calls people "leotards"-- because there's nothing wrong with poking fun at the physically fit. ;) )
Pussy? soft and wet, weak and over-emotional, akin to cissy. We are speaking of stereotypes, not rationally constructed critiques of gender. I don't think we are personalising the dick as much as using it in the same way as pussy, as a signifier of gender, much like those little glyphs outside toilets tell us nothing really about gender, but are shorthand.

This is an ace thread btw.
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by Rum » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:02 pm

My dad tells the story of being invited to a fellow soldier's home for Christmas in 1944 when he was a young recruit at the end of WW2 (because they were based so far from my dad's home). He and his mate were only 18 or so and had just had basic training and been exposed to its 'hardening' effects.

They sat down to Christmas lunch and his mate blurted out to his mother 'pass the fucking salt would you'?

His father made him to leave the house for the remainder of lunch, leaving my dad eating his in a silent excruciatingly embarrassing atmosphere..

Some words still have power, though not as much as they used to perhaps.

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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by hadespussercats » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:06 pm

@Audley-- :) Thanks!

I don't know-- I've seen a pussy take a serious beating and still get the job done! I'd like to see a dick attempt the same, without getting "over-"emotional. ;)

Funny, you spell "sissy" as "cissy"-- brings a whole new meaning to "cis-gendered."

How do you feel about men being dicks?

Oh, and a general question-- is "bastard" really gendered as an insult? I've heard people say "bastard" is the male version of "bitch." But, the word "bastard" wasn't gendered in its original meaning, i don't think. Why aren't women bastards?
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by hadespussercats » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:11 pm

Rum wrote:My dad tells the story of being invited to a fellow soldier's home for Christmas in 1944 when he was a young recruit at the end of WW2 (because they were based so far from my dad's home). He and his mate were only 18 or so and had just had basic training and been exposed to its 'hardening' effects.

They sat down to Christmas lunch and his mate blurted out to his mother 'pass the fucking salt would you'?

His father made him to leave the house for the remainder of lunch, leaving my dad eating his in a silent excruciatingly embarrassing atmosphere..

Some words still have power, though not as much as they used to perhaps.
Yikes. I don't know the whole story, but sounds like they were awful hard on the mate. Of course, I'm saying this from the future, with less care about "fuck" and more care about the mental trauma of basic training.
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Re: You cunt! I mean, you dick! I mean...

Post by Pappa » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:11 pm

Perhaps because a known bastard was usually a child that was acknowledged, and a nobleman rarely had a reason to acknowledge an illegitimate daughter but they might need to acknowledge a son for purposes of heredity.

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