Libertarianism

[Seth]

Neither Seth, nor Jonno are correct.
What Seth is missing is that merely having a few guns isn't going to mean you'll survive anarchy.

I don't have a few guns, I have lots of guns, and lots of ammunition, and friends who are likewise armed and prepared for precisely this sort of civil disintegration. We, you see, have a plan.
The only plan the dependent class proletarian fucks have is "I gotta git me sumptin to eat." Sadly for them, when the free food runs out, they won't be in a position to take it from us, because we will remain well fed and well armed and capable of defending our foodstocks and other assets.

And, what Jonno forgets is that as often as not, the government is the villain. To think "it can't happen here" because we in the west are so enlightened is missing a big dose of history.

It DID happen here. It CAN happen here. And, it very likely WILL happen here (meaning somewhere in the West) again. It DID happen in Russia. It DID happen in Germany. It DID happen in Serbia. It DID happen in Yugoslavia. Bosnia happened. Mussolini happpened in Italy. Spain was a dictatorship until the 1970s.

This is not ancient history.

Yup. And it DID happen in Ukraine, in 1932, where Stalin deliberately stole all of Ukraine's grain and allowed 12 million people to starve to death in the "Holomodor."

Parliamentary Democracy -- Republicanism -- these are the exception, not the rule.

To think one is "safe" unless the government collapses ignores not only what is possible, but what is historically the norm. To think that humans have fundamentally changed in only a generation or two, in in only a small portion of the world, is to ignore reality.

Yup.

Poor planning promotes piss poor performance. I have a plan. Do you? I know MrJonno doesn't, so he will be among the first to die.

[Gerald McGrew]

Any number of enforcement methods available, including collective action for collective harm. The key element is that unless you actually do something to harm someone else, you get to do as you please on your own property.

Sorry, that's too vague to respond to. What specific means of "force" were you referring to?

[Seth]

I really think the Libbos believe they will do just fine after the infrastructure of society collapses. The third generation will be living in caves or teepees.

Nothing wrong with caves or teepees. But in fact we'll be living in the homes of those who failed to plan and prepare and who died in the billions when the government largess and the tolerance of the productive class ran out.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The Earth Abides. You should read this.

Read it many times. Not really applicable to the sort of civil unrest and mass starvation caused by the dependent class eating each other.

The cause of the collapse don't change the outcome. You use molybdenum. Where you going to get that after the collapse?

[MrJonno]

Government through more can be a villain (through I would argue no government has ever killed anyone only the general public acting with the government can achieve this) , but most people can survive an oppressive government few people can survive no government at all. If the government wants to you kill its probably time to find somewhere else to live rather than worry about what your 'rights' are

Complete anarchy for anything other than an extremely short time is almost unheard off, someone usually the military will step in if no one else does.

[Seth]

Any number of enforcement methods available, including collective action for collective harm. The key element is that unless you actually do something to harm someone else, you get to do as you please on your own property.

Sorry, that's too vague to respond to. What specific means of "force" were you referring to?

Whatever force is required to prevent the export of harm and the initiation of force or fraud of course. That may mean individual action, or collective action, or any number of other methods of enforcing responsible social behavior including shunning and refusing to trade, associate or otherwise socially support the antisocial individual.

[Seth]

The Earth Abides. You should read this.

Read it many times. Not really applicable to the sort of civil unrest and mass starvation caused by the dependent class eating each other.

The cause of the collapse don't change the outcome. You use molybdenum. Where you going to get that after the collapse?

From the miners at the Amax molybdenum mine north of Leadville.

[Gerald McGrew]

Whatever force is required to prevent the export of harm and the initiation of force or fraud of course.

Again, too vague to respond to.

That may mean individual action, or collective action, or any number of other methods of enforcing responsible social behavior including shunning and refusing to trade, associate or otherwise socially support the antisocial individual.

I think you're dodging the obvious here in order to adhere to your extreme ideology.

[MrJonno]

I don't have a few guns, I have lots of guns, and lots of ammunition, and friends who are likewise armed and prepared for precisely this sort of civil disintegration. We, you see, have a plan.

I think we can guarantee at least one part of that statement isn't true through I suspect the guns and ammo bit is.

Do your psycho 'friends' actually know you are an atheist, bet they dont

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The Earth Abides. You should read this.

Read it many times. Not really applicable to the sort of civil unrest and mass starvation caused by the dependent class eating each other.

The cause of the collapse don't change the outcome. You use molybdenum. Where you going to get that after the collapse?

From the miners at the Amax molybdenum mine north of Leadville.

And that's the ore taken care of. But how did you get there? And once you have the ore, who does the refining? Where do they get their materials? Who teaches them how to refine it? And then we move on to the processes that use the moly. You have to do all that yourself when you're the survivor of a civilization-wide collapse.

Really, "Libertarianism" should be called "The Back to Alley Oop Movement."

[Gerald McGrew]

Let's say whatever community we live in sides with me. The nuclear plant that provides the electricity needs a place to store their waste, and people need a place to take their old car tires. I provide those services.

When you go whining about dirty air and malformed kids, you get no sympathy from the community.

Now what do you do?

[Seth]

Government through more can be a villain (through I would argue no government has ever killed anyone only the general public acting with the government can achieve this) , but most people can survive an oppressive government few people can survive no government at all. If the government wants to you kill its probably time to find somewhere else to live rather than worry about what your 'rights' are

The philosophy of cowards. What happens when you run out of places to run and hide? I prefer to remove any government that wants to kill me using whatever force is required to do so and replace it with a government that will respect my rights.

Complete anarchy for anything other than an extremely short time is almost unheard off, someone usually the military will step in if no one else does.

Or the militia. Oh wait, I'M the militia....

How about you, MrJonno, are you trained, equipped and prepared to serve in the militia in the event of civil disorder and anarchy?

You're not? Oh well, that just means you die sooner.

[Seth]

Whatever force is required to prevent the export of harm and the initiation of force or fraud of course.

Again, too vague to respond to.

What's vague about it? If you dump trash on my lot, I'll come over and take you by the ear and make you clean it up. If you resist, I'll thump you thoroughly and then take you by the ear and make you clean it up. If you resist with violence, I'll use whatever force is called for, up to and including lethal force to defend my life, and then I'll take you by the ear and make you clean it up...if you survive.

If you still refuse, then the community will boycott you. They will neither sell to you or buy from you. You will find no employment, food, shelter, or other goods available to you. You will be shunned and excluded from all social intercourse.

If I'm not capable of enforcing my rights, I'll call upon my friends and neighbors and explain your antisocial acts to them and persuade them to assist me in taking you by the ear and making you clean it up, using whatever force is required to make you do so.

That may mean individual action, or collective action, or any number of other methods of enforcing responsible social behavior including shunning and refusing to trade, associate or otherwise socially support the antisocial individual.

I think you're dodging the obvious here in order to adhere to your extreme ideology.

I think you don't understand Libertarian philosophy.

[Seth]

I don't have a few guns, I have lots of guns, and lots of ammunition, and friends who are likewise armed and prepared for precisely this sort of civil disintegration. We, you see, have a plan.

I think we can guarantee at least one part of that statement isn't true through I suspect the guns and ammo bit is.

Do your psycho 'friends' actually know you are an atheist, bet they dont

You'd be wrong, as usual.

[MrJonno]

The philosophy of cowards. What happens when you run out of places to run and hide? I prefer to remove any government that wants to kill me using whatever force is required to do so and replace it with a government that will respect my rights.

Spoken like a true terrorist