Libertarianism

[Seth]

Any ideology that puts freedom above all other concerns is evil, libertarianism is wrong from its very fundamental first principles

Ensuring people (ie everyone) gets food, shelter medical care and opportunities in life trump any freedom. Where its possible to have freedom and it doesn't interfere with this then fine if not then fuck freedom.

That's the mindset of the greedy socialist proletarian dependent class. "I want what I want and I'll take what I want and force others to work to provide it to me because that's what I want."

Civilization is as much about what you have to do as it is about what you choose to do. You lose the right to have complete control of your own life when you choose to live in such a civilization.

Well, "maximize" is always a relative term.

Also what libertarianism mean by statism sane people consider to be society the basis of everything of value in modern life.

Again, the mindset of the greedy socialist proletarian dependent class who falsely believe that only the state can provide the things of value in life, and that others must be forced to labor on their behalf to provide those things of value. "I want what I want and I don't give a fuck who I have to enslave and force to labor to give it to me."

Libertarians aren't anti state they are anti-social and in extreme cases sociopaths

No, we're anti-socialIST. You are not deserving of the fruits of my labor, and I have not agreed voluntarily to labor on your behalf because you have not offered me anything of value in return for that labor, all you offer is the threat of involuntary servitude. Fuck you, I refuse to be enslaved.

[Gerald McGrew]

One of my good friends is pretty libertarian. Being a former small-business owner, he usually bitches about gov't over-regulation, oftentimes environmental regulations. My counter to him usually runs along the lines of...

"So then you won't mind at all if I buy the property next to yours and start up a tire burning service and nuclear waste repository, right? Surely no gov't has the right to tell me what I can or can't do with my private property!"

His rebuttal is that he will just "vote with his feet", i.e. move away. That leads us to discuss what happens to those people who cannot afford to move. Are they just stuck there with no recourse? The end point is almost always what I see as the modern Republican/libertarian philosophy to the poor, or just about anyone else who isn't wealthy....

"Fuck 'em!"

[Seth]

One of my good friends is pretty libertarian. Being a former small-business owner, he usually bitches about gov't over-regulation, oftentimes environmental regulations. My counter to him usually runs along the lines of...

"So then you won't mind at all if I buy the property next to yours and start up a tire burning service and nuclear waste repository, right? Surely no gov't has the right to tell me what I can or can't do with my private property!"

His rebuttal is that he will just "vote with his feet", i.e. move away. That leads us to discuss what happens to those people who cannot afford to move. Are they just stuck there with no recourse? The end point is almost always what I see as the modern Republican/libertarian philosophy to the poor, or just about anyone else who isn't wealthy....

"Fuck 'em!"

So long as none of the toxic materials leave your property and enter mine, it's none of my business what you do on your land.

On the other hand, if you release toxic materials and they DO leave your property and enter mine, then you have initiated force and perhaps fraud (by damaging my property) upon me and I'm authorized to use force to prevent you from doing so.

It's called "exported harm." If you want to do something that doesn't harm others on your land, you should be allowed to do so without restraint, and you should only be regulated or prohibited from exporting harm from your property to others. \

Pretty simple concept really.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

One of my good friends is pretty libertarian. Being a former small-business owner, he usually bitches about gov't over-regulation, oftentimes environmental regulations. My counter to him usually runs along the lines of...

"So then you won't mind at all if I buy the property next to yours and start up a tire burning service and nuclear waste repository, right? Surely no gov't has the right to tell me what I can or can't do with my private property!"

His rebuttal is that he will just "vote with his feet", i.e. move away. That leads us to discuss what happens to those people who cannot afford to move. Are they just stuck there with no recourse? The end point is almost always what I see as the modern Republican/libertarian philosophy to the poor, or just about anyone else who isn't wealthy....

"Fuck 'em!"

Very. "Root hog, or die!" is the motto. They're rugged individualists in a world that only works by cooperation. They miss the irony.

[MrJonno]

That's the mindset of the greedy socialist proletarian dependent class

I think that means part of the 99%?, oh well guilty as charged at least we get 99% of the vote

[Seth]

One of my good friends is pretty libertarian. Being a former small-business owner, he usually bitches about gov't over-regulation, oftentimes environmental regulations. My counter to him usually runs along the lines of...

"So then you won't mind at all if I buy the property next to yours and start up a tire burning service and nuclear waste repository, right? Surely no gov't has the right to tell me what I can or can't do with my private property!"

His rebuttal is that he will just "vote with his feet", i.e. move away. That leads us to discuss what happens to those people who cannot afford to move. Are they just stuck there with no recourse? The end point is almost always what I see as the modern Republican/libertarian philosophy to the poor, or just about anyone else who isn't wealthy....

"Fuck 'em!"

Very. "Root hog, or die!" is the motto. They're rugged individualists in a world that only works by cooperation. They miss the irony.

Except that Libertarians are nothing of the sort, you're just constructing a convenient strawman, as I've described before, in order to evade any real debate.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

[Gerald McGrew]

So long as none of the toxic materials leave your property and enter mine, it's none of my business what you do on your land.

On the other hand, if you release toxic materials and they DO leave your property and enter mine, then you have initiated force and perhaps fraud (by damaging my property) upon me and I'm authorized to use force to prevent you from doing so.

It's called "exported harm." If you want to do something that doesn't harm others on your land, you should be allowed to do so without restraint, and you should only be regulated or prohibited from exporting harm from your property to others. \

Pretty simple concept really.

So...we just shoot it out? Biggest gun/best shot wins?

[Seth]

That's the mindset of the greedy socialist proletarian dependent class

I think that means part of the 99%?, oh well guilty as charged at least we get 99% of the vote

Sadly yes, but all that means is that the gravy train will soon come to an end and you will die starving in the dark as the productive class finally surrenders to the socialist credo and stops producing and becomes dependent, at which point there's nobody making anything for you to eat, and you will die slowly and agonizingly as you deserve.

On the other hand, those of us with guns will take what's left and survive quite nicely during the spasm of anarchy and death that follows, and when the dependent class is all dead, we'll rebuild a Libertarian society on it's bones.

Been not so nice knowing you. Sleep tight and dream of starvation.

[Seth]

So long as none of the toxic materials leave your property and enter mine, it's none of my business what you do on your land.

On the other hand, if you release toxic materials and they DO leave your property and enter mine, then you have initiated force and perhaps fraud (by damaging my property) upon me and I'm authorized to use force to prevent you from doing so.

It's called "exported harm." If you want to do something that doesn't harm others on your land, you should be allowed to do so without restraint, and you should only be regulated or prohibited from exporting harm from your property to others. \

Pretty simple concept really.

So...we just shoot it out? Biggest gun/best shot wins?

Any number of enforcement methods available, including collective action for collective harm. The key element is that unless you actually do something to harm someone else, you get to do as you please on your own property.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

That's the mindset of the greedy socialist proletarian dependent class

I think that means part of the 99%?, oh well guilty as charged at least we get 99% of the vote

Sadly yes, but all that means is that the gravy train will soon come to an end and you will die starving in the dark as the productive class finally surrenders to the socialist credo and stops producing and becomes dependent, at which point there's nobody making anything for you to eat, and you will die slowly and agonizingly as you deserve.

On the other hand, those of us with guns will take what's left and survive quite nicely during the spasm of anarchy and death that follows, and when the dependent class is all dead, we'll rebuild a Libertarian society on it's bones.

Been not so nice knowing you. Sleep tight and dream of starvation.

The Earth Abides. You should read this.

[MrJonno]

That's the mindset of the greedy socialist proletarian dependent class

I think that means part of the 99%?, oh well guilty as charged at least we get 99% of the vote

Sadly yes, but all that means is that the gravy train will soon come to an end and you will die starving in the dark as the productive class finally surrenders to the socialist credo and stops producing and becomes dependent, at which point there's nobody making anything for you to eat, and you will die slowly and agonizingly as you deserve.

On the other hand, those of us with guns will take what's left and survive quite nicely during the spasm of anarchy and death that follows, and when the dependent class is all dead, we'll rebuild a Libertarian society on it's bones.

Been not so nice knowing you. Sleep tight and dream of starvation.

Oh yes because the 1% are just so vital in Rand world, no one is that important or irreplaceable. I'll be ok unless government collapses then I die so I guess I had better make sure it doesn't

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I really think the Libbos believe they will do just fine after the infrastructure of society collapses. The third generation will be living in caves or teepees.

[Coito ergo sum]

Neither Seth, nor Jonno are correct.
What Seth is missing is that merely having a few guns isn't going to mean you'll survive anarchy.

And, what Jonno forgets is that as often as not, the government is the villain. To think "it can't happen here" because we in the west are so enlightened is missing a big dose of history.

It DID happen here. It CAN happen here. And, it very likely WILL happen here (meaning somewhere in the West) again. It DID happen in Russia. It DID happen in Germany. It DID happen in Serbia. It DID happen in Yugoslavia. Bosnia happened. Mussolini happpened in Italy. Spain was a dictatorship until the 1970s.

This is not ancient history.

Parliamentary Democracy -- Republicanism -- these are the exception, not the rule.

To think one is "safe" unless the government collapses ignores not only what is possible, but what is historically the norm. To think that humans have fundamentally changed in only a generation or two, in in only a small portion of the world, is to ignore reality.

[Seth]

That's the mindset of the greedy socialist proletarian dependent class

I think that means part of the 99%?, oh well guilty as charged at least we get 99% of the vote

Sadly yes, but all that means is that the gravy train will soon come to an end and you will die starving in the dark as the productive class finally surrenders to the socialist credo and stops producing and becomes dependent, at which point there's nobody making anything for you to eat, and you will die slowly and agonizingly as you deserve.

On the other hand, those of us with guns will take what's left and survive quite nicely during the spasm of anarchy and death that follows, and when the dependent class is all dead, we'll rebuild a Libertarian society on it's bones.

Been not so nice knowing you. Sleep tight and dream of starvation.

The Earth Abides. You should read this.

Read it many times. Not really applicable to the sort of civil unrest and mass starvation caused by the dependent class eating each other.