Thunderfoot hacking FtB - Allegedly

[DaveDodo007]

A Hermit:

Does the concept 'those in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks.' Mean anything to you and on a personal note do fuck off.

[DaveDodo007]

The way I see it, signing up again and dishing some (fairly dirty) dirt is about as unethical as being a whistle-blower. Wait... it is being a whistle-blower.

Out of curiosity, does the email list have ToS?

Wouldn't that kinda depend on whether there are ethical breeches more important than poking into what's supposed to be private and the showing that private info to the whole world?

This is what I would like to know, as for ethics I say TF was right to expose these maggoty scum for what they are.

[FBM]

Can someone please clear something up for me. From what I understand TF was booted off FtB and removed from their email list. Some time after that he signed up to their email list with a new email address and started receiving emails again. After that he let people know about what topics were being discussed on the list. Is that correct?

Not exactly; here are the technical details:

He actually threatened to "out" at least on member of FtB whose life could be very adversely affected by haveing her identity revealed. http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed ... 10/all-in/

You're a lowdown, dirty cunt lapping liar.

Skeeve, this is a reminder to heed the Play Nice Rule. Thanks and enjoy.

[Jaygray]

The way I see it, signing up again and dishing some (fairly dirty) dirt is about as unethical as being a whistle-blower. Wait... it is being a whistle-blower.

Out of curiosity, does the email list have ToS?

Wouldn't that kinda depend on whether there are ethical breeches more important than poking into what's supposed to be private and the showing that private info to the whole world?

This is what I would like to know, as for ethics I say TF was right to expose these maggoty scum for what they are.

After checking out both sides of this caberet this is the conclusion I have come to as well.

Thunderf00t's actions were ethically questionable, let's face it. FtB however is no friend to atheists, skeptics (most of them I notice have problems with the meaning of that word other than to use it as as a useful label) or so-called 'free-thinkers'. Thanks to the actions of Thunderf00t (and many others through various fora and blogs) this has now been brought into full view. Undoubtedly there are innocents on FtB caught in the crossfire; maybe they should find somewhere else to live.

Weighing it all I would have to say that the greater good has come from the exposure of the sickness within the FtB blog organisation, a sickness that originates from the very top (without apparent regret). I guess history will be the ultimate judge though.

As for the Atheist Plus people, they will be impotant until they link to a mainstream political party. When they do that they will have to make so many compromises they will be indistiquishable from anybody else out there. They will also have to deal with the wider public including theists. Good luck with that.

[Pappa]

I don't think TF's actions were ethically questionable. They banned him and removed him from an email list that he (most likely) knew was being used in the way that's only come to light because of his actions. If FtB regarded it as confidential, they could and should have taken some very simple steps to make it so. All TF did was eavesdrop, and by the sound of things, eavesdrop with the intent to gather dirt. If anyone's actions are ethically questionable, it's the folks who were hatching ethically questionable plans.

Not that I give a fuck about TF or anyone else connected with it. I've mostly joined in here because I think A Hermit's spin doctoring to be so bizarre.

[Jaygray]

I don't think TF's actions were ethically questionable. They banned him and removed him from an email list that he (most likely) knew was being used in the way that's only come to light because of his actions. If FtB regarded it as confidential, they could and should have taken some very simple steps to make it so. All TF did was eavesdrop, and by the sound of things, eavesdrop with the intent to gather dirt. If anyone's actions are ethically questionable, it's the folks who were hatching ethically questionable plans.

Not that I give a fuck about TF or anyone else connected with it. I've mostly joined in here because I think A Hermit's spin doctoring to be so bizarre.

Well maybe I'm projecting my personal unease at TF's actions. Ethical judgements can be tricky sometimes and I'm perfectly willing to accept that I might be off base here.

The rest of your points are spot on. I'm no fan of TF either, but I'd take his word over FtB and their spinners any day. As I hope I've made clear, IMO the results justified the action TF took. FtB are a collection of nasty peices of work.

[Skeeve]

Everyone seems to be overlooking one of the "sooper sekrit" messages that TF did post. They discussed what to do with his share of revenue, with Ed even suggesting they keep it all and "fuck him". In light of this type of information, I see nothing wrong with TF logging back in to the mailing list.

[Coito ergo sum]

The way I see it, signing up again and dishing some (fairly dirty) dirt is about as unethical as being a whistle-blower. Wait... it is being a whistle-blower.

Out of curiosity, does the email list have ToS?

Wouldn't that kinda depend on whether there are ethical breeches more important than poking into what's supposed to be private and the showing that private info to the whole world?

Let's remember, he did not show anybody's private info to the world. He disclosed the substance of a couple of emails, to show that they were up to no good (when they wanted to dishonestly claim that they were not up to no good). Nobody's email, address or true identity was disclosed.

[Coito ergo sum]

The access was not unauthorized. If it was unauthorized, the system would not have let him back on.

He had been booted off the system and set an e-mail telling him he was no longer permitted to use the system. If I tell you to stay out of my house you are not "authorized" to come in just because you happen to have a key. he did not have permission to be there, if that makes it clearer for you...

This wasn't a house, for the 100th time. This was an email mailing list. The way email mailing lists work is that even people who they don't know from Adam can go to that website and enter their email address to be on the list. The system is set up to let people on or keep them off. If the system lets them on, then it lets them on.

He did not threaten to disclose her real life identity. The article you linked to does not substantiate that allegation.

He implied that he might...Natalie says that when she expressed her concerns about her identity "he laughed and suggested that his treatment by PZ and FTB as a whole justified any actions he wanted to take." If I were in Natalie's position I would be inclined to err on the side of caution and take that as a threat.

That is what she says, sure. But her comments are self-serving. The credibility of FtB is not good, particularly in light of the "run him out of the movement" and "fuck him out of his revenues.." nonsense they were scheming. The viciousness and meanspiritness over there is rampant.

Not basically at all. They hacked. He just entered in an email address an pressed enter.

You're splitting hairs. Break and enter is still a crime whether you break a window to get in or walk in through an unlocked door. Same principle applies here; if you don't have permission to take something you are wrong to take it, even if it was easy to do so.

It's a false, and ridiculous analogy to call this breaking and entering. It's not the same principle at all. He didn't "take" anything. He was on a mailing list.

And, it's not a "smear" if it's true.

T-Foot accuses them of trying to have Payton fired. This is blatantly untrue. They defended themselves against Payton's uncalled for attack, that's all. Should they just sit there quietly while the leader of a national organization puts them down? Everyone can talk smack about FtB but they aren't allowed to answer...is that it?

Thunderfoot never said they tried to get Payton fired.

Here is what Ed Brayton said about Thunderfoot, though: “I want to do whatever it takes to make sure that he is essentially drummed out of this movement, never invited to speak anywhere again and is forever a pariah.”

FtB manufactured the "least damaging story" to explain Thundefoot's expulsion.

FtB also doesn't actually keep the substance of the communications on that list confidential. http://freethoughtblogs.com/rockbeyondb ... /the-pits/ and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsiXRYUQ7yA&t=5m26s (PZ discussing the contents of the mailing list as part of this presentation).

Nor do they seem to realize that their main beef that I ‘stole their personal details‘ is clearly stupid. I, and everyone else on that mailing list, would have had all of those details (whatever they actually are, I still have no idea) anyways from when they originally signed me up to the mailing list. So what exactly are these personal details they think I’ve ‘stolen’ here?

http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/ ... -a-pariah/

[Skeeve]

Someone PM'd me and ask for more details about this post.

I was referring to FTB and the conspiracy to defraud/ Drawing a line under this pointless crap


Where Ed Brayton had this to say:

“I haven’t even given any thought to the point at which I would stop paying him. The blog was killed on July 1. I could call that the end or pay him for hits in July, which were not unsubstantial. Or at this point I could just tell him to go fuck himself.”

[Gerald McGrew]

*deep breath*

I've been reading about all this for a few weeks now, and eventually I had to give my thoughts on the whole thing. This forum seems as good as any for that.

For full disclosure, I had read FtB since its inception, but became increasingly disenchanted with it over time. The whole feminism/thunderfoot thing eventually pushed me out for good, but that's somewhat OT.

I can't help but see the TF-listserve escapade as follows...

The FtB listserve is similar to a private internet message board, where you have to be an approved member to even read anything on the board. TF was asked to join this group and was given permission to access it. Eventually TF was kicked out of the group and was told so. At some point, TF discovered that even though they kicked him out of the group, he was still able to log in and read what they were saying, so naturally he did just that. Having been kicked out of my share of private religious boards, I definitely understand the desire and curiosity to log back in and see what they're saying about you after your banishment.

Now, TF knows perfectly well what's going on. The group wanted him out, but didn't fully or properly execute the ban. The fact that he's "lurking", reading, and not posting is evidence that he realizes their error and is taking advantage of it to satisfy his curiosity. IMO, that's at worst slightly unethical or immoral and more akin to being naturally curious.

And as we all know, eventually TF sees the FtB group talking about someone else he knows, so he shares that info with that person, allegedly deleting the personal info from the copied messages (and to date, there's no evidence that he didn't do that). The shit hits the fan, FtB people freak out, and TF releases some more contents of their discussions.

So the question to those of us who are interested is, who's wrong here? Is it TF for knowingly exploiting an error by FtB, or is it the FtB'ers for what they wrote?

For me, what TF did was one of those, "Yeah...technically it was wrong" things, but also not too much of a big deal (and given the circumstances, fairly understandable). Kinda like jaywalking. Yes, you should have gone all the way down to the intersection, but traffic was light and the store was right there across the street, so I understand why you did what you did.

The release from FtB's about "possibly making a minor deal about this" regarding Michael Payton's tweet, again I don't see as necessarily wrong or immoral, but more as a good example of the sort of whining, professional victim hood, and wagon-circling mentality that caused me to quit reading FtB in the first place. "Wah, wah, wah. Someone criticized us, so let's make a stink and demand an apology". Annoying and petty, but not necessarily "wrong". However, the one from Ed Brayton about TF, and the one about his earnings were absolutely awful and I hope their contents speaks for themselves. I can't imagine anyone defending them.

So in the end, I think TF comes off as a little less trustworthy, and the FtB crew has deservedly taken yet another hit to their credibility.

[tantamount]

I've been reading about all this for a few weeks now, and eventually I had to give my thoughts on the whole thing [....]

Fully agree with all your points. Same here: long-time (now disenchanted) FTB reader.
The Payton thing was just too much: "zomg, a tweet. he tweeted us. oh, the humanity..."

[A Hermit]

You're a lowdown, dirty cunt lapping liar.

A Hermit:

Does the concept 'those in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks.' Mean anything to you and on a personal note do fuck off.

Gee, I'm so glad I found a place where reason rules and no one resorts to bullying, name calling or other childish tactics...

[SteveB]

You're a lowdown, dirty cunt lapping liar.

A Hermit:

Does the concept 'those in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks.' Mean anything to you and on a personal note do fuck off.

Gee, I'm so glad I found a place where reason rules and no one resorts to bullying, name calling or other childish tactics...

You came from FTB, didn't you? FTB is the home of bullying, name calling or other childish tactics and the Whopper.

[Gerald McGrew]

I would bet money that "A Hermit" has something to do with FtB. That explains the constant pleas to "Go over there and read".