Thunderfoot hacking FtB - Allegedly

[Audley Strange]

Facts from threethoughtblogs?

Sorry I'm not clicking the link, I refuse to give them a penny or my valuable nanoseconds.

So I remain skeptical. What Tfoot did might not have been noble, however the actions of some at FtB and their related fanbase, their stated aims and strategy have hardly been beyond reproach themselves, especially with regards to such things as privacy and trust (word is superfluous) They alienate people and whine that the people they alienate don't take them seriously.

It is attention seeking for an increasing irrelevance that is only currently and marginally relevant because its attempts to gain attention have been so utterly repugnant, a rolling tantrum of maenads presided over by Narcissus and Echo.

Also, facts are not what you read in an article and agree with. So before you start telling me and others what to think, learn how to do it yourself.

[DaveD]

[Azathoth]

It is laudible when he does it though

Some of you know that the producers of Expelled had a conference call this afternoon…a carefully controlled, closed environment in which they would spout their nonsense and only take questions by email. I listened to it for a while, and yeah, it was the usual run-around. However, I dialed in a few minutes early, and got to listen to a tiresome five minutes of Leslie and Paul chatting away, during which time they mentioned the secret code (DUNH DUNH DUNNNNH!) for the two way calls. I know. Sloppy, unprofessional, and stupid, but that’s the way they work.

So … I redialed. (DUNH DUNH DUNNNNH!)

Then I listened along quietly until I could take no more.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008 ... misbehave/


wanker

[Robert_S]

But he's one of Teh Gud Gaiz!

Heh, it ain't about privacy, it's about being able to say the works "Thunderfoot" and "Hack" together like that.

[A Hermit]

Facts from threethoughtblogs?

Sorry I'm not clicking the link, I refuse to give them a penny or my valuable nanoseconds.

So I remain skeptical.

You mean you remain wedded to your preconceptions and can't be bothered to look at all sides of the story. That's not what I call skepticism...

[Audley Strange]

I didn't say I haven't looked at both sides of the story. I'm aware of Natalie Reed's "I was scared by my imagination, blame thunderfoot and fuck misogynist atheist blah blah blah." I've read through a few of the "well he's bad but when we did, we were on the good side of the holy Femjesus of atheism" rationalisations and evasions.

I'm well aware of what's went on. I'm well aware of all the hypocrisy, name calling, agitprop, crocodile tears, ridicule and various other levels of dishonest debate. However while that is coming from both sides of this schism, one is ideologically motivated to move certain people into be "figureheads" to co-op the attention towards their personal agenda. To claim privilege for a tiny trivial minority (no not women, think of a much much smaller subset of that) while accusing all others of being privileged. A group that is alienating itself from the very idea of skepticism and is actually trivialising the very thing they claim is serious by extending it to absurdity.

The other side is, it seems to me, everyone else saying "check your reasoning, you daft bastards." Or sitting back going WTF?

For which they in turn get told they are misogynist rape trolls from beyond the Vaginaverse or some such fucking shit because they don't agree or are, by saying nothing enabling disagreement with those ideological "truths". They don't want to debate because there is nothing to debate. All that's left is perverse humour. At this point It's like watching a someone you vaguely knew at school just having a screaming, floor thumping, tantrum in a supermarket.

I'm just not clicking on the link. I'm not contributing directly to ftb blogs. The less hits they get the quicker what seems to me and many others the real problem in the atheist networks will vanish. Self appointed leaders and social justice campaigners that were probably laughed out of the real Social Justice movement.

No thanks. I'll stick to my disbelief and distrust of crazy conspiratorial ideologies.

Bye.

[PsychoSerenity]

You mean you remain wedded to your preconceptions and can't be bothered to look at all sides of the story. That's not what I call skepticism...

All sides of the story are not necessarily equal. I have looked at the explanations of what thunderf00t did, and while it's ethically rather dubious, at the level of eavesdropping and breaking someone's trust, it certainly isn't hacking or anything illegal. And the alleged 'potential serious harm' supposedly cause by his actions, as he has pointed out himself, is utter nonsense. The personally identifying information he was able to access by reregistering on the mailing list, had already been given to him the first time round, and to everyone else who had access.

If someone is seriously worried (and I understand plenty of people have good reason) about their personal information getting out, they'd do better not using it to sign up to a mass mailing list. They can hardly blame him for simply having this information, after they decided that they don't like or trust him any longer. But he has said, and there is little reason to doubt him given his own experience with such issues, that he only forwarded the content, removing any personal data, so in all serious probability there is no harm done. If an individual still thinks that the risk from the information that they shared is too great, well that is unfortunate, and do I hope that they manage to deal with it, but I really don't see how any blame can be put on thunderf00t, since he (and all the other people with access), were never under any serious obligation, beyond general agreement and trust, to keep the information secret.

[Robert_S]

Seems to me that what we have here, at RatSkep, and different fora is the closest thing to an Atheist Community out there. We're all sorts of people.

What PZ wants is that we need to marginalize our libertarians, non-feminists and people who don't identify as progressive. I can't support that agenda and won't support anyone else who does. And since he's the bull-goose loony over there at FtB, I don't much care to go over there. I'm not being closed minded, they have no monopoly on the truth about gender issues or atheist issues.

Yes, there is a problem here. And the problem lies in people who are affronted at any extension of atheist values to embrace other social values. Which is why I have some reservations about Michael’s first suggestion, that we have to stay focused on atheism and skepticism. Those ideas should be omnipresent, they should inform what we do, but they need to be a foundation, not a final end result.

So on one side we have smug jerks who hate the idea of being progressive, but on the other, on my side, we’re quite ready to cut the troglodytes loose, and we’re quite ready to move on without them. We see the rift forming, and we actually see it as a good thing; as Natalie Reed said on twitter:

I don’t WANT to be allies with ppl who need to be dragged, kicking & screaming, into treating me like a human.

Michael has stepped into the no-man’s land between the raging forces, and it’s a gallant effort. But judging by the comments already on his article, he hasn’t convinced the smug anti-progressives that maybe they should embrace a wider scope for atheism, and he really hasn’t tried yet to convince the people on the other side that maybe the angry sexists and racists and sneering self-satisfied libertarians are worth bringing on board. I’m inclined to say they’re not, until they grow up and change.

From http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... -the-smug/

I understand the need for an inclusive community. If someone's driving off a large number of people, that's should be countered somehow.

So, what about my atheist, anti-homophobic, libertarian leaning, gun owning, friend who has been on the front lines of struggle for gender equality? I certainly don't want to support any atheist movement that has no room for her.

ETA: When I say "front lines" I mean one of a small number of women going into a previously exclusively male environment and paving the way for more women to come.

[A Hermit]

You mean you remain wedded to your preconceptions and can't be bothered to look at all sides of the story. That's not what I call skepticism...

All sides of the story are not necessarily equal. I have looked at the explanations of what thunderf00t did, and while it's ethically rather dubious, at the level of eavesdropping and breaking someone's trust, it certainly isn't hacking or anything illegal.

"Ethically dubious" is a nice way of putting it. Sleazy, immature and creepy would be n=more accurate. As for the legality I'm not so sure; don't know if it would rise to the level of a criminal offense but if I were T-foot I'd be worrying about civil liability.

And the alleged 'potential serious harm' supposedly cause by his actions, as he has pointed out himself, is utter nonsense.The personally identifying information he was able to access by reregistering on the mailing list, had already been given to him the first time round, and to everyone else who had access.

And why should any of the people whose trust he violated by sneaking back in (and repeatedly trying to sneak in again after being caught and locked out) trust him on this? He certainly hasn't given them any reason to think he can be relied on to behave ethically. Much can be revealed inadvertently as well; without intending to he might let slip some identifying details. Besides his lack of ethics I don't see a lot of evidence that T-foot is particularly competent with handling information. And just the fact that someone who has loudly and publicly expressed his contempt for you is in possession of personal details and personal thoughts which were supposed to be private is cause for concern, wouldn't you agree?

T-foot jumped the shark here, even former allies are abandoning him...I recommend reading John Welch's excellent comments here:http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck ... ment-75731 and here: http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck ... ment-75748

For Thunderfoot to stoop to this level to attack people who are on the same side in the fight for reason and skepticism and science just because his precious fee-fees got hurt is beyond sleazy. This isn't how a rational grownup behaves, this is the kind of thing a narcissistic adolescent does. If I was in some way vulnerable and someone like this unprincipled asshat had my personal info I'd be very worried.

[DaveDodo007]

First I don't give a fuck about ThunderfOOt, but you seem to be arguing that two wrongs make a right. Well you can fuck off with that. The mosque of freefromthoughtblogs are a bunch of middle class PC, right on wankerthons. They tried to get atheists sacked in real life because they didn't share their ideology and so they can suck my dick as far as I'm concerned and if you support these wankstains then the same goes for you too.

[A Hermit]

First I don't give a fuck about ThunderfOOt, but you seem to be arguing that two wrongs make a right. Well you can fuck off with that. The mosque of freefromthoughtblogs are a bunch of middle class PC, right on wankerthons.

I'm sorry, was that little rant adressed to me? If so where exactly do you see me arguing that two wrongs make a right? I think you're imagining things...

As for this:

They tried to get atheists sacked in real life because they didn't share their ideology

it' just another of the lies being perpetrated by Tfoot and his sycophantic fanboys. He's done the same thing the "climategate" hackers did; stole private communications and selectively and dishonestly excerpted the to create a false story with which to smear people.

and so they can suck my dick as far as I'm concerned and if you support these wankstains then the same goes for you too.

Sorry honey, you're not my type.

And what I'm supporting is treating people with respect, regardless of their gender, and maintaining some ethical standards. If you have objections to that I guess I'll just have to cry myself to sleep tonight knowing I've lost you forever...

[DaveDodo007]

First I don't give a fuck about ThunderfOOt, but you seem to be arguing that two wrongs make a right. Well you can fuck off with that. The mosque of freefromthoughtblogs are a bunch of middle class PC, right on wankerthons.

I'm sorry, was that little rant addressed to me? If so where exactly do you see me arguing that two wrongs make a right? I think you're imagining things...

Picking on TF while ignoring the behaviour of FTB’s should count if you are honest.

As for this:

They tried to get atheists sacked in real life because they didn't share their ideology

it' just another of the lies being perpetrated by Tfoot and his sycophantic fanboys. He's done the same thing the "climategate" hackers did; stole private communications and selectively and dishonestly excerpted the to create a false story with which to smear people.

I was there on Greta Christina’s blog when it was happening so feel free to check it out.

and so they can suck my dick as far as I'm concerned and if you support these wankstains then the same goes for you too.

Sorry honey, you're not my type.

You don’t know what you are missing.

And what I'm supporting is treating people with respect, regardless of their gender, and maintaining some ethical standards. If you have objections to that I guess I'll just have to cry myself to sleep tonight knowing I've lost you forever...

Respect has to be earned, though it probably explains most of your stupidity if you give it away so freely.

[tantamount]

Thorough answers to all the misrepresentations in this thread can be found by carefully, calmly and with an open mind reading the links found here:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/entequilaes ... l-crusade/

In short; no one at FtB has been trying to get anyone fired, TF is NOT a 'whistleblower", he violated privacy, trust and his word, and the potential for very serious harm to some of the FtB bloggers (including some who had nothing at all to do with the drama that got TF's knickers in a twist to begin with) are very real.

Get the facts before shooting your mouths off.

I won't read FTB anymore... not until it once again shows
itself to be a place where critical thought and dissent are
allowed. I love PZ... but I am not impressed with his creationist
behavior. He has lost a lost of respect from me. I don't read
FTB for the same reason I don't go to Chick Fil A.

[Audley Strange]

Well misandry includes homophobia. Good point.

[A Hermit]

Picking on TF while ignoring the behaviour of FTB’s should count if you are honest.

What are you saying? That some bad behaviour by someone at FtB makes what TF did OK? Isn't that the "two wrongs make a right" argument you just mistakenly accused me of making? You're really not very good at this reasoning stuff, are you?

Do I really need to explain "Tu Quoque" to you? Just because person A might have done something bad to person B doesn't make it all right for person C to do something worse to persons D,E,F etc. This is something most people should understand by the time they graduate Kindergarten..

Depending on which behaviour you're referring to we could probably get into a whole lot of false equivalence too, but I'm not going to go there because this is just the old tactic of "change the subject". Sorry, not going to play that game. Nice try though...

I was there on Greta Christina’s blog when it was happening so feel free to check it out.

So was I; (except it was Zinnia Jones who drew attention to Payton's tweet, not Christina...) The idea that there was any attempt by anyone at FtB to get Payton fired, as TF is claiming, is a pure fantasy.

You don’t know what you are missing.

Maybe not but I have a feeling it's a small sacrifice to make...

Respect has to be earned, though it probably explains most of your stupidity if you give it away so freely.

I take a different approach; I try to give everybody respect until they do something to lose it. Which is what happened with Thunderfoot.