Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line!

[Audley Strange]

I'm thinking about how do you get a person to consider that their attitudes might need revising. If all they're thinking about is how to defend themselves from the charge of misogyny, they're going to become entrenched in their views and miss out on any subtle points the speaker is trying to get across.

Well that is a good question. However I'd say that if you are accusing people of misogyny your position is pretty entrenched to start with and there in lies the problem.

So I have a suggestion. Let's rid the gender based language from the discussion at all and replace it with concepts of power and oppression, of orthodox and hetrodox, of submission and dominance using them as neutral terms rather than using heavily loaded gender slurs and accusations to discuss problems of varying levels of social clumsiness and outright hatred.

[orpheus]

I just want to thank you all for the recent posts in this thread. I've been participating in a similar discussion at RatSkep, and although it's a good discussion in general, it's been hard to make these points and have them really heard. There's a lot of resistance. (That's not unique to RS though, of course.)

Anyway, it's refreshing to read this.

[Azathoth]

I do react a bit when people use the word misogyny where I think sexism is probably best applied if anything, but that seems to be common nowadays unfortunately. I think using the label stifles having a reasonable debate in a lot of cases.

They don't want debate. They want everyone to "Shut up and listen" TM

[Audley Strange]

I just want to thank you all for the recent posts in this thread. I've been participating in a similar discussion at RatSkep, and although it's a good discussion in general, it's been hard to make these points and have them really heard. There's a lot of resistance. (That's not unique to RS though, of course.)

Anyway, it's refreshing to read this.

I've not seen much resistance to idea or discussion here. What I have seen is some heated resistance to demands about what we are allowed to say and how we are allowed to say it.

[DaveDodo007]

I'm thinking about how do you get a person to consider that their attitudes might need revising. If all they're thinking about is how to defend themselves from the charge of misogyny, they're going to become entrenched in their views and miss out on any subtle points the speaker is trying to get across.

Well that is a good question. However I'd say that if you are accusing people of misogyny your position is pretty entrenched to start with and there in lies the problem.

So I have a suggestion. Let's rid the gender based language from the discussion at all and replace it with concepts of power and oppression, of orthodox and hetrodox, of submission and dominance using them as neutral terms rather than using heavily loaded gender slurs and accusations to discuss problems of varying levels of social clumsiness and outright hatred.

I couldn't agree more with this, I don't care if the skepchicks and FTB's where in favour of a matriarchal society as long as they bring it to the market place of ideas and lets debate it. Thought when your modus operandi is to shut down all opposition and stifle debate. bullying and trying to shame anyone who doesn't share your values, then you have lost me. It seems peoples real life jobs are threatened because people will not follow the Soviet diktat of these ideologues. All they have managed to do is guilt trip a few nerds with their Kafkatrapping and boy do they love the power trip they are getting from it. Meanwhile religion and most of politicians are happy to continue to divide and conquer. They should write a book on how to sell out a mostly left progressive movement just for their own personal fame and fortune.

[Robert_S]

I have a lot of ideas and values that could be described as progressive. Most of them actually.

The reason I don't want to be labeled as a "progressive" though is that there will inevitably arise some pope of progressivism who will try to dictate my ideals to me.

"You'll pay to know what you really think."
J. R. "Bob" Dobbs

[Audley Strange]

That's the problem with identifying yourself as part of any collective. Some shouty wanker with a chip on their shoulder will inevitably be the public face of it.

[Bella Fortuna]

I dunno, I consider myself a proud wankist...

[SteveB]

I need evidence of said wanking in order to believe you.

[Bella Fortuna]

Ah, the skepwank! I've heard about your sort...

[SteveB]

Yes and you know we need rigorous evidence.

[Bella Fortuna]

I should go engage in some experimentation. I shall return with my findings.

[SteveB]

Erm..flow charts?

[Bella Fortuna]

Pie chart.

[SteveB]