You guys and your guns...

[pErvinalia]

[rant]Also, WTF is with the rest of the world referring to US citizens as 'Americans'? Canada, Mexico, and the many countries of South America are also 'Americans'. [/rant]

It's been that way since the early 1800s at least. I used to care about it, but don't bother now.

I used to make the effort, but I don't any more. It's way easier writing 'Americans' than 'US citizens' etc.

[pErvinalia]

To Seth.

First.
New Zealand has the least corrupt government on the planet. That does not come from us being naive sheep. The judgment came from an international survey, so is independent. The US came in 24th on the same survey, showing it is less corrupt than most third world nations, but more so than most advanced nations. Most of the 23 above the USA are countries with tight gun control. This clearly shows that allowing the more insane members of the citizenry to run around with guns does not make for a less corrupt government or nation.

Did the survey happen to mention why the US had such a high level of corruption? If I had to guess, I bet it had a lot to do with third world peoples (Blacks and Hispanics) in the US and the politicians that cater to them.

Yeah, those brown people ruin it for everyone.

[pErvinalia]

Hey, Seth. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on my post a handful of pages ago about the second amendment and gun regulations. I'll just go and find a link and edit it in here.

eta: http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 0#p1242070 http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 0#p1242091

[Gawdzilla Sama]

[rant]Also, WTF is with the rest of the world referring to US citizens as 'Americans'? Canada, Mexico, and the many countries of South America are also 'Americans'. [/rant]

It's been that way since the early 1800s at least. I used to care about it, but don't bother now.

I used to make the effort, but I don't any more. It's way easier writing 'Americans' than 'US citizens' etc.

I consciously made the effort to never say "American" when I meant "US citizen" until I learned me some history. The British started calling us "Americans" shortly after the Revolutionary War. It caught on. Few other countries, if any, in the Western Hemisphere had a national identity to match ours, so it worked.

[pErvinalia]

Yeah, and plenty of USians refer to themselves as Americans. It actually used to piss me off, because it seemed arrogant to forget that there are a whole lot of other Americans on the continent(s) outside of the USA. But in the end, it's just a convenience thing. I think most of South America call them Americans as well. So if it doesn't bother them, then it doesn't bother me.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yeah, and plenty of USians refer to themselves as Americans. It actually used to piss me off, because it seemed arrogant to forget that there are a whole lot of other Americans on the continent(s) outside of the USA. But in the end, it's just a convenience thing. I think most of South America call them Americans as well. So if it doesn't bother them, then it doesn't bother me.

Most of the rest of the hemisphere is used to the usage. But they tend to refer to us as "Gringos" down south.

[Gallstones]

firearms are used successfully defensively between 80,000 and 2 million times every year (Kleck et al),

I remember a study a few years back that looked at car driving skills. One of the survey questions was:
Do you think that, as a driver, you are :
1. Excellent
2. Above average
3. Average
4. Below average
5. Poor
It was not surprising that the result was 85% reporting they were above average or excellent.

This kind of result is inevitable with that kind of question. A similar result comes from asking a gun enthusiast if he/she has ever successfully used a gun to defend him/herself or some other person. Since 90% of the population are not a rational thinkers, they will use emotional logic, which goes like this.
1. I love guns
2. Therefore guns are good
3. Therefore guns are useful
4. Therefore I have used a gun in a useful way.
So when they are asked the survey question, they will find a way, through emotional thinking, to justify their possession of guns. So we have Joe Gun-lover remembering the time he heard an alarming noise (the iron on his house roof contracting at night). He grabbed his gun and ran around looking for a burglar. Finding none he went back to bed convinced he had scared off a dangerous villain.

Anyone who believes this kind of thinking does not happen is very naive. Like the example above, with self assessment of car driving skills, gun lovers self assessments of successful self defense with a gun will be totally unreal.

1. Yes, I do love guns.
2. Guns are neither good or bad unless one needs one then it is good.
3. Guns are definately useful.
4. I have had fun with guns but have never needed one for defense of myself or anyone else unless you count when I was in the Army or when I was a Correctional Officer at Montana State Prison. I don't count that.

I think that you are making it all up for the lolz or to stimulate discussion. I just don't believe that you believe the stupid conclusions you make. But then I might, perhaps in that regard, be naive.

[Blind groper]

I think that you are making it all up for the lolz or to stimulate discussion. I just don't believe that you believe the stupid conclusions you make. But then I might, perhaps in that regard, be naive.

The murder statistics are clear cut. Half of all murders with hand guns, or 8,000 plus per year.
I do not think it is naive to pay heed to such clear cut numbers.

[Wumbologist]

I think that you are making it all up for the lolz or to stimulate discussion. I just don't believe that you believe the stupid conclusions you make. But then I might, perhaps in that regard, be naive.

The murder statistics are clear cut. Half of all murders with hand guns, or 8,000 plus per year.
I do not think it is naive to pay heed to such clear cut numbers.

No, but what is naive is to think that those numbers tell the whole story or prove any sort of causal link.

[Blind groper]

Wumbo

As this whole thread shows, it goes much deeper than that. It is the comparison to other nations with almost no hand guns, and a parallel reduction in the murder rate. It is common sense, in that we can see exactly why being able to possess hand guns permits a much higher murder rate.

Our resident racist, Tyrannical, thinks the high murder rate in the USA is due to a lot of blacks and Hispanics. Yet in NZ, we have a much higher percentage of ethnic dark skinned peoples than the USA does, and our murder rate is less than a third per capita.

The big difference between the USA and other rich countries with a much lower murder rate, is that the other countries have very few hand guns.

[JimC]

I think that you are making it all up for the lolz or to stimulate discussion. I just don't believe that you believe the stupid conclusions you make. But then I might, perhaps in that regard, be naive.

The murder statistics are clear cut. Half of all murders with hand guns, or 8,000 plus per year.
I do not think it is naive to pay heed to such clear cut numbers.

No, but what is naive is to think that those numbers tell the whole story or prove any sort of causal link.

It would be naive to think that they are the only factor, or provide a single cause. But the disparity is so significant that it would be equally naive to suppose that the liberal hand-gun regulations and high prevalence of hand-guns, in combination, do not at least provide a contributory factor to your much higher rates of murder via hand-gun.

[Svartalf]

Nibbler, the firearms I own have little to do, for the most part, with self-defence. They are tools. Like you might use a stapler to clip papers together, I use a rifle to hunt. Like you may use a hammer to nail, I use a shotgun to split wigs. Er.. yeah.

I'm using the argument specifically against pro-gun people who think that non-gun-owners somehow live in fear. That's demonstrably not true, despite much how Seth wants to spin it. His argument is akin to saying I'm deluded for not living in fear of being a victim of a very unlikely crime. No point even addressing it really. There's better ways to waste my time.

I would still rather, A LOT, that our laws were changed and I could own a few pieces. Given how much trust I have in our police and armed forces, the concept of not having guns when they do is bothersome to me.

[Jason]

[rant]Also, WTF is with the rest of the world referring to US citizens as 'Americans'? Canada, Mexico, and the many countries of South America are also 'Americans'. [/rant]

It's been that way since the early 1800s at least. I used to care about it, but don't bother now.

I used to make the effort, but I don't any more. It's way easier writing 'Americans' than 'US citizens' etc.

I consciously made the effort to never say "American" when I meant "US citizen" until I learned me some history. The British started calling us "Americans" shortly after the Revolutionary War. It caught on. Few other countries, if any, in the Western Hemisphere had a national identity to match ours, so it worked.

Yes, yes.. I know all that. It still irritates me. I know my position isn't shared by many.

[Gallstones]

Us--ee-ans.

[pErvinalia]

and that's not hard to write...