The Civil War Within Skepticism

[Bella Fortuna]

[edited to add.] Do we have any statisticians?

Well, there's Marge Inovera...

[Audley Strange]

where's the :polishes shotgun: emoticon?

[Bella Fortuna]

It's civil war!

Let me call my Russian driver, Pikup Andropov, to speed me away from here!

[SteveB]

PZ losing friends fast...

Sam Harris:

It is difficult to overlook the role that blog comments play in all this. Having a blog and building a large community of readers can destroy a person’s intellectual integrity—as appears to have happened in the case of PZ Myers. Many people who read his blog come away convinced that I am a racist who advocates the widespread use of torture and a nuclear first strike against the entire Muslim world. The most despicable claims about me appear in the comment thread, of course, but Myers is responsible for publishing them. And so I hold him responsible for circulating and amplifying some of the worst distortions of my views found on the Internet.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/wrestling-the-troll/

I hear PZ is trying to reform his blog cuz of all his asshole commenters. Doubt that'll ever work, he's one of them.

[Badger3k]

PZ losing friends fast...

Sam Harris:

It is difficult to overlook the role that blog comments play in all this. Having a blog and building a large community of readers can destroy a person’s intellectual integrity—as appears to have happened in the case of PZ Myers. Many people who read his blog come away convinced that I am a racist who advocates the widespread use of torture and a nuclear first strike against the entire Muslim world. The most despicable claims about me appear in the comment thread, of course, but Myers is responsible for publishing them. And so I hold him responsible for circulating and amplifying some of the worst distortions of my views found on the Internet.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/wrestling-the-troll/

I hear PZ is trying to reform his blog cuz of all his asshole commenters. Doubt that'll ever work, he's one of them.

He already gave up. Back to moderating, returned his Dungeon to normal (but hideous to look at - like a color-blind used car salesman from the 70s) except he added a whole bunch of people to help him out. Even started to give a new award based on the comments (just like his old pretentious OM, which is still going on for now). He pretty much had his flounce then came back to business as usual.

[JimC]

Sticking to cephalopods seems like a good plan to me...

[Hermit]

Sam Harris:

Many people who read his blog come away convinced that I am a racist who advocates the widespread use of torture and a nuclear first strike against the entire Muslim world. The most despicable claims about me appear in the comment thread, of course, but Myers is responsible for publishing them. And so I hold him responsible for circulating and amplifying some of the worst distortions of my views found on the Internet.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/wrestling-the-troll/

Sam Harris is advocating torture and he also does advocate the use of nuclear force against Muslims.

[Thinking Aloud]

Sam Harris:

Many people who read his blog come away convinced that I am a racist who advocates the widespread use of torture and a nuclear first strike against the entire Muslim world. The most despicable claims about me appear in the comment thread, of course, but Myers is responsible for publishing them. And so I hold him responsible for circulating and amplifying some of the worst distortions of my views found on the Internet.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/wrestling-the-troll/

Sam Harris is advocating torture and he also does advocate the use of nuclear force against Muslims.

"Advocating torture" ≠ "advocat[ing] the widespread use of torture"
"Nuclear force" ≠ "a nuclear first strike against the entire Muslim world"

Regardless of his stance on these issues, which I've not looked up yet but am now curious to investigate, the point he appears to be making here is that his opinions have been polarised to extremes and (presumably) taken way beyond their original scope and context, by the same kind of people who conflate a tasteless joke to an actual threat of violence.

[Jaygray]

Sam Harris is advocating torture and he also does advocate the use of nuclear force against Muslims.

'fraid not. Try reading him again.

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text ... troversy2/

You may not like or agree with what he says, but by the same token you have no evidence for such a conclusion.

[Coito ergo sum]

Possibly relevant - more from Surly Amy on this podcast (http://elevatorgate.wordpress.com/2012/ ... white-men/)

Justin Vacula says

She says that she wants policies to say "making fake jewelry and intentionally offending people is not okay nor is grabbing someone's ass." (There is ass-grabbing? I wasn't aware this was a problem or actually happened at TAM or atheist conventions.)

Making fake jewelry is not a bad thing at all. Making fake jewelry and fraudulently pawning it off as real jewels, well, that is a problem. But, making fake jewelry is not a problem at all. Lots of people like fake jewelry, because it's inexpensive.

Grabbing someone's ass implies a lack of consent, which is, of course, generally not permitted, although slapping an ass is pretty common on sports teams. Other than that context, though, "grabbing" an ass - well, particularly a woman's ass -- is a no-no. It is a holdover from the paternalistic days of "you can't do that to a lady" kind of thing (since, well, a woman smacking or grabbing a man's ass was and is not considered an "assault" -- it's just funny - so, if the Skepchicks want to continue that sexist double standard, it seems fine to me too). I too, haven't heard of any grab-ass issue at atheist/skeptic events. Even the most hardened chauvinist among us is fairly well informed that grabbing a handful of woman-ass is a no-no....

I have to TOTALLY disagree with her claim that there should be a policy against "intentionally offending" people. Is she fucking kidding? See the quote below by Stephen Fry, and go fuck off, "Surly Amy."

Another who listened to the podcast said this:

'm listening to that Surly Amy thing. She starts by saying Elevator Man ("you're interesting, how about coffee?") is bad. Later on, when she's saying how she's ok with people 'hooking up' she describes a much more explicit 'hit on' scenario ("Hey, you're cute, how about we hook up?") and says that that sort of thing would be great. Oh dear.

Now, I haven't listened to it myself, so I can't verify this as correct, but based on past actions I'm inclined to accept it as accurate for now. If it is true, then...WTF?

LOL -- she'd no doubt parse out the context and explain that it's all about carefully listening to the woman, and gauging what she is and is not open to.... so, it's a great hit on scenario, if you correctly ascertain that she is open to it, but if she isn't open to it, then you're a harasser. Simple.

And, guaranteed, if a woman said it to a man, it wouldn't be a problem at all, because men aren't bothered by the same stuff women are bothered by...

[Coito ergo sum]

It's civil war!

Let me call my Russian driver, Pikup Andropov, to speed me away from here!

Were the seats tested properly by official seat tester, Wilma Butfit?

[Coito ergo sum]

doopylickit

[Coito ergo sum]

PZ losing friends fast...

Sam Harris:

It is difficult to overlook the role that blog comments play in all this. Having a blog and building a large community of readers can destroy a person’s intellectual integrity—as appears to have happened in the case of PZ Myers. Many people who read his blog come away convinced that I am a racist who advocates the widespread use of torture and a nuclear first strike against the entire Muslim world. The most despicable claims about me appear in the comment thread, of course, but Myers is responsible for publishing them. And so I hold him responsible for circulating and amplifying some of the worst distortions of my views found on the Internet.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/wrestling-the-troll/

I hear PZ is trying to reform his blog cuz of all his asshole commenters. Doubt that'll ever work, he's one of them.

Sam gets a lot of grief from the Left wingers, along with Ayaan Hirsi-Ali and Salman Rushdie, because they don't "respect" Islam. It's o.k. to scorn and offend Christians, but Islam is a minority group, according to folks like PZ Myers, and if one scorns and offends Islam then one is associating oneself with right wing racists.

Harris was Hitchensian when it came to Islam and the war on terrorism, so, of course, the rabid Lefties like Myers and his ilk have "concerns" about him...he doesn't fit.

[Badger3k]

Possibly relevant - more from Surly Amy on this podcast (http://elevatorgate.wordpress.com/2012/ ... white-men/)

Justin Vacula says

She says that she wants policies to say "making fake jewelry and intentionally offending people is not okay nor is grabbing someone's ass." (There is ass-grabbing? I wasn't aware this was a problem or actually happened at TAM or atheist conventions.)

Making fake jewelry is not a bad thing at all. Making fake jewelry and fraudulently pawning it off as real jewels, well, that is a problem. But, making fake jewelry is not a problem at all. Lots of people like fake jewelry, because it's inexpensive.

For clarity, the "fake jewelry" was supposedly mocking the skepchicks and Surly Amy in particular. Her jewelry is here, and it's basic craft fair work. I've seen tons of the stuff at events and renaissance faires all over the place. Not my cup of tea - I prefer leather or metal. I can't find the description, but somebody posted somewhere that the "fake" jewelry had either an elevator, a coffee cup, or a combination of both. I'm really not sure on that - I have a vague memory of reading it somewhere but can't find it now. Anytime anyone has asked about the "fakes" they seem to be met with silence or insults. My first thought on the "fakes" was that someone saw her idea, said "I can do that" and gave her competition. It happens all the time in real life. So, depending on what these fakes were, either she (may, per the podcast I have yet to listen to) want to discourage things she finds offensive or competition. Either way....not good, especially not at events that are supposed to promote freethought and skepticism.

[Badger3k]

PZ losing friends fast...

Sam Harris:

It is difficult to overlook the role that blog comments play in all this. Having a blog and building a large community of readers can destroy a person’s intellectual integrity—as appears to have happened in the case of PZ Myers. Many people who read his blog come away convinced that I am a racist who advocates the widespread use of torture and a nuclear first strike against the entire Muslim world. The most despicable claims about me appear in the comment thread, of course, but Myers is responsible for publishing them. And so I hold him responsible for circulating and amplifying some of the worst distortions of my views found on the Internet.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/wrestling-the-troll/

I hear PZ is trying to reform his blog cuz of all his asshole commenters. Doubt that'll ever work, he's one of them.

Sam gets a lot of grief from the Left wingers, along with Ayaan Hirsi-Ali and Salman Rushdie, because they don't "respect" Islam. It's o.k. to scorn and offend Christians, but Islam is a minority group, according to folks like PZ Myers, and if one scorns and offends Islam then one is associating oneself with right wing racists.

Harris was Hitchensian when it came to Islam and the war on terrorism, so, of course, the rabid Lefties like Myers and his ilk have "concerns" about him...he doesn't fit.

I'm not so sure about that. I think PZ has spoken out against Islam, but you might be right with the association with racism. I've heard that charge before with Harris, and for PZ, he had heard the same thing about Thunderf00t and mentioned that in at least one blogpost. He did say he did absolutely no checking on it as well, if memory serves.