Those who have come from Pz's blog, aka THAT thread

[Gawdzilla Sama]

What I want to know is, what is the goal?

The eradication of masculinity even as a concept.

At least by those most frightened by the concept. RATIONAL folks realize there's no need to be so extreme in anything.

When I say that. When I say there are feminists whose goal is the eradication of masculinity even as a concept. It sounds paranoid doesn't it? I'd accept that if
I was frightened by them or I was imagining the things they say. I'm not. A quick perusal of their rantings shows that they actually consider men as flaws or inferior.

I meant "afraid of the concept if masculinity". One side of noise-maker says "Feminism is good!" Other side of noise-maker says "Masculinism is BAD!" It's okay to be biased against the world's largest minority.

[Brian Peacock]

A lot of the online threats and harassment are...

...enough to make a cat laugh...

MASSIVE GENERALISATION ALERT:

The trouble with bloggers is that they often conflate the number of hits they receive with the number of people who are interested in what they have to say, and consequently think their words carry more meaningful significance than they actually do.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...rationalia makes no claims to be any kind of beacon for skepticism...

But we are a cheesy-bacon for skepticism.

[Wumbologist]

Yeah, but so what?

Nobody is ever going to get everyone to treat everyone else equally. Men don't treat other men equally. Women don't treat other women equally.

I'm not talking about on an individual basis. In general, people should treat each other as societal equals whether they are male or female. In the Western world this is a lot less of a problem than it used to be, but as with any other cause of equality there is still room for improvement and perhaps always will be.

Men's attitudes about what they "think" someone owes them are not things that "need to be changed." All that needs to be is that men can't have sex with women unless women consent to sex, and vice versa. What someone "thinks" another person owes them is not something anyone can control, or should be able to control.

Not directly. It's not a matter of indoctrinating people, it's a societal change. A few decades ago, it was very common for white people in the US to "think" that blacks were inferior. That sort of thinking still exists but it is a minority and shunned by reasoned members of society. Yet, there is still room for improvement in the battle against racism, just as there is in fighting sexism.

And, there is hardly anyone who really thinks that "women exist for the purpose of being sexual objects." I'm sure some sociopathic men and women can't view other humans except as sex objects, but pretty much the vast bulk of society views humans as humans which includes their sexuality and sexual attractiveness.

There are enough people who "really think" that for it to be a problem worth fighting. It is an issue, even if it is an issue that is often conflated by people in elevators who treat an invite for coffee at a conference as a case of this sort of thing.

These aren't things that need to be remedied. We live in a free society, and people are going to think and say what they want. The key is equal treatment under the law, which we have. And, we have seen equality in education and employment -- now more women than men attend and graduate college. More women than men are becoming doctors, veteranarians, lawyers and other advanced degrees. The salary gap has closed, and for people under 40, women are equal to and exceeding male incomes.

Don't forget that there are still large portions of the voting population who take issue with women using birth control, and have made that an issue.

The work to be done is not in the West. To say that "some men view women in terms of their own sexual gratification" is a trifling complaint, and one with no societal answer. If people want to only view others as objects of sexual gratification, that's their right as a human being.

It's certainly their "right", but by that logic, since it's their "right" to think that homosexuals should be re-educated or put to death, we shouldn't work towards changing that either.

The only people I see claiming "men think women only exist for the purpose of being sexual objects" are feminists and it's an outrageous accusation.

I'm not saying all or even most men think that way, but it's out there. I recognize it as a phenomenon that exists, where as the radical feminist implicates every man, or at least every man who doesn't subserviently obey their whims with his dick tucked between his legs, as being guilty of it.

[Bella Fortuna]

A lot of the online threats and harassment are...

...enough to make a cat laugh...

MASSIVE GENERALISATION ALERT:

The trouble with bloggers is that they often conflate the number of hits they receive with the number of people who are interested in what they have to say, and consequently think their words carry more meaningful significance than they actually do.

AND are more likely to say things designed to be incendiary/inflammatory in order to get more hits, especially if there is money to be made or a reputation to build up.

[Wumbologist]

There is still a lot of work to be done in the west. Just google #justiceforched, and look at the twitter feed to see how much.
The problem with the likes of skepchicks is that they caricature the problem, and themselves.

Right. To be clear, I am not making a case for skepchick apologism here. I am saying there is a case for legitimate, pro-equality feminism, which the likes of the Pharyngula crowd and the skepchicks are making a mockery of.

[Coito ergo sum]

Don't forget that there are still large portions of the voting population who take issue with women using birth control, and have made that an issue.

So? Those people are just as much a part of "us" - a part of "society" - as you and me. There are large portions of the voting population that take issue with men jerking off, and people drinking sugary soft drinks. That's never going to change.f

The work to be done is not in the West. To say that "some men view women in terms of their own sexual gratification" is a trifling complaint, and one with no societal answer. If people want to only view others as objects of sexual gratification, that's their right as a human being.

It's certainly their "right", but by that logic, since it's their "right" to think that homosexuals should be re-educated or put to death, we shouldn't work towards changing that either.

Yep. Certainly. That's why the suggestion that some men think that women are here for male gratification is a trifling complaint. People think a lot of things. Weird thoughts are rampant.

The response to such folks is reason. That war will never end. It's not a battle of the sexes, though. It's a battle against the idiots.

[Thinking Aloud]

A lot of the online threats and harassment are...

...enough to make a cat laugh...

MASSIVE GENERALISATION ALERT:

The trouble with bloggers is that they often conflate the number of hits they receive with the number of people who are interested in what they have to say, and consequently think their words carry more meaningful significance than they actually do.

AND are more likely to say things designed to be incendiary/inflammatory in order to get more hits, especially if there is money to be made or a reputation to build up.

This is reminding me of something ... Let me go and look at the number of comments on a randomly-chosen skeptical blog and see if it bears close scrutiny.

[cogwheel]

Don't forget that there are still large portions of the voting population who take issue with women using birth control, and have made that an issue.

So? Those people are just as much a part of "us" - a part of "society" - as you and me. There are large portions of the voting population that take issue with men jerking off, and people drinking sugary soft drinks. That's never going to change.f

That sounds an awful like "there will always be murderers so we shouldn't try and prevent murder."

I'm sorry but there are real problems that real women face in the western world that CAN be addressed and SHOULD be addressed, regardless of how you feel it compares to issues facing women elsewhere.

I've been just as disillusioned by skepchicks the like, but I think you're starting to swing into denial territory...

[Coito ergo sum]

There is still a lot of work to be done in the west. Just google #justiceforched, and look at the twitter feed to see how much.
The problem with the likes of skepchicks is that they caricature the problem, and themselves.

Right. To be clear, I am not making a case for skepchick apologism here. I am saying there is a case for legitimate, pro-equality feminism, which the likes of the Pharyngula crowd and the skepchicks are making a mockery of.

If all the "Communications" majors at Skepchick would have gotten engineering, medical, or science-related degrees, they would do far more good....

"Science is awesome!"

"Oh, really? What discipline did you study in college?"

"Communications."

"Did you take any science electives?"

"Sure! Intro to Science, and Science Fiction in Literature. And, I took Algebra as a freshman! So, I'm like all good with all that sciency stuff."

"How did you do in Calculus, Physics, Chemistry, Thermodynics, Fluid Dynamics, Biology....?"

"Huh? What? What are those courses? Math is hard. I took Public Relations, Marketing, Media, and Intro to Journalism as an elective. I had to cram all night before the finals, which put a damper on my partying that week."

[Wumbologist]

So? Those people are just as much a part of "us" - a part of "society" - as you and me. There are large portions of the voting population that take issue with men jerking off, and people drinking sugary soft drinks. That's never going to change.f

The difference here is that people taking issue with masturbation or sugary soda rarely results in violence against masturbators or soda drinkers. And if these people were to try to introduce legislation to enforce their anti-masturbation or anti-soda views and it didn't sit well with us, we'd do well to oppose those, too.

The response to such folks is reason. That war will never end. It's not a battle of the sexes, though. It's a battle against the idiots.

There's nothing here that I'm disagreeing with, in case you thought there would be.

[Bella Fortuna]

A lot of the online threats and harassment are...

...enough to make a cat laugh...

MASSIVE GENERALISATION ALERT:

The trouble with bloggers is that they often conflate the number of hits they receive with the number of people who are interested in what they have to say, and consequently think their words carry more meaningful significance than they actually do.

AND are more likely to say things designed to be incendiary/inflammatory in order to get more hits, especially if there is money to be made or a reputation to build up.

This is reminding me of something ... Let me go and look at the number of comments on a randomly-chosen skeptical blog and see if it bears close scrutiny.

I can guess what you'll find.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Don't forget that there are still large portions of the voting population who take issue with women using birth control, and have made that an issue.

So? Those people are just as much a part of "us" - a part of "society" - as you and me. There are large portions of the voting population that take issue with men jerking off, and people drinking sugary soft drinks. That's never going to change.f

That sounds an awful like "there will always be murderers so we shouldn't try and prevent murder."

I'm sorry but there are real problems that real women face in the western world that CAN be addressed and SHOULD be addressed, regardless of how you feel it compares to issues facing women elsewhere.

I've been just as disillusioned by skepchicks the like, but I think you're starting to swing into denial territory...

We range far and freely. You're welcome to tag along or start your tangent. That's what Ratz is about, free thought.

[Svartalf]

If all the "Communications" majors at Skepchick would have gotten engineering, medical, or science-related degrees, they would do far more good....

"Science is awesome!"

You forget that comm majors are usually those who can't cut the mustards in humanities, let alone science.

[Coito ergo sum]

Don't forget that there are still large portions of the voting population who take issue with women using birth control, and have made that an issue.

So? Those people are just as much a part of "us" - a part of "society" - as you and me. There are large portions of the voting population that take issue with men jerking off, and people drinking sugary soft drinks. That's never going to change.f

That sounds an awful like "there will always be murderers so we shouldn't try and prevent murder."

There is a huge difference between prevention of crime, and trying to control what people think.

I'm sorry but there are real problems that real women face in the western world that CAN be addressed and SHOULD be addressed, regardless of how you feel it compares to issues facing women elsewhere.

I've been just as disillusioned by skepchicks the like, but I think you're starting to swing into denial territory...

I'm all for reducing crimes against people (among whom women are included), and discrimination has been largely remedied -- women have been equalized in education, employment, property ownership, etc. I don't think the problems "women" face are much distinguishable from the problems "people" face.