Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line!

[Brian Peacock]

Seth,

Can we still refer to extreme intoxication as a voluntary act even when the intoxicee (!) is addicted? In other words, do you think there is a duty of care to protect those who cannot help themselves?

Just a sidenote really.

[Robert_S]

Seth. That might have been a call to personal responsibility, but it's actually really creep to me.

[hadespussercats]

Now, now, don't talk about yourself that way, I'm sure you're a perfectly nice person in the real world.

I'm a nice guy in the real world where my personal biases have been formed by the observation of and interactions with some of the behavior and attitudes of my fellow males. You know... having to explain that falling asleep after overdrinking is not actually consent.

Isn't it? If one voluntarily and knowingly becomes intoxicated, thus voluntarily placing one's person in the care of others, is it not a form of consent to whatever those other persons may choose to do with your unconscious body? Is it not your responsibility to care for your own self if you have concerns about what others might do to you while voluntarily unconscious? If you have such concerns, is it not your responsibility to make sure that you do not become voluntarily incapacitated when placing yourself in the care of those who are untrustworthy?

And then there's the matter of consent that IS given while intoxicated that one does not remember, or more likely regrets, the morning after. Is it not your responsibility to accept the consequences of giving such consent?

I do not accept as a given that intoxication is an absolute bar to consent or that anyone else is responsible for caring for you if you become voluntarily intoxicated and/or incapacitated. To me, any negative consequences that occur as a result of that voluntary decision fall into the "well, that was a stupid thing to do, I won't do THAT again" and the blame and responsibility lie with you, not others who may have taken advantage of the situation. There's a sucker born every minute, and a fool and her virginity are soon parted, so stay sober and keep your knees together and your knickers on. If you get drunk and get screwed, just accept the fact that YOU screwed up and don't blame other people for what's your fault.

Jesus.

All I can say is I hope they keep you away from the coma patients at the hospital.

What? They didn't say no, did they?

[Jason]

Kill Bill

[hadespussercats]

Kill Bill

Yup.

[Coito ergo sum]

Seth,

Can we still refer to extreme intoxication as a voluntary act even when the intoxicee (!) is addicted? In other words, do you think there is a duty of care to protect those who cannot help themselves?

Just a sidenote really.

I would say there is no such individual "duty," in the sense of if you see some guy on the street with a bottle, seemingly (to you) destitute and drunken, to go out of your way to affirmatively help that person or to "protect" that person from himself.

There is a duty to refrain from affirmatively harming that person. It may be negligence and a breach of said duty to hand that person another bottle, or sell them more alcohol. That, of course, is different than a duty to protect.

The reason I don't see that as a duty is because, opinions being like assholes, whether someone is in need of protection is subject to a wide variety of disparate opinion. Some folks think you're an alcoholic if you've gone binge drinking (meaning had more than 5 drinks in three hours time). Does that person have a duty to protect folks who drink 6 or 7 drinks from themselves?

In the end, people are called upon to take care of their own business. And, that's the best way to have a free society where people are at liberty to pursue their own happiness as they see fit. Some folks are going to fuck up.

[Coito ergo sum]

Now, now, don't talk about yourself that way, I'm sure you're a perfectly nice person in the real world.

I'm a nice guy in the real world where my personal biases have been formed by the observation of and interactions with some of the behavior and attitudes of my fellow males. You know... having to explain that falling asleep after overdrinking is not actually consent.

Isn't it? If one voluntarily and knowingly becomes intoxicated, thus voluntarily placing one's person in the care of others, is it not a form of consent to whatever those other persons may choose to do with your unconscious body? Is it not your responsibility to care for your own self if you have concerns about what others might do to you while voluntarily unconscious? If you have such concerns, is it not your responsibility to make sure that you do not become voluntarily incapacitated when placing yourself in the care of those who are untrustworthy?

And then there's the matter of consent that IS given while intoxicated that one does not remember, or more likely regrets, the morning after. Is it not your responsibility to accept the consequences of giving such consent?

I do not accept as a given that intoxication is an absolute bar to consent or that anyone else is responsible for caring for you if you become voluntarily intoxicated and/or incapacitated. To me, any negative consequences that occur as a result of that voluntary decision fall into the "well, that was a stupid thing to do, I won't do THAT again" and the blame and responsibility lie with you, not others who may have taken advantage of the situation. There's a sucker born every minute, and a fool and her virginity are soon parted, so stay sober and keep your knees together and your knickers on. If you get drunk and get screwed, just accept the fact that YOU screwed up and don't blame other people for what's your fault.

Jesus.

All I can say is I hope they keep you away from the coma patients at the hospital.

What? They didn't say no, did they?

Gotta go with "no" on the "anything goes with an unconscious body" theory.

Women ought to be held to the same standard of drunkenness as men. If a woman has a few extra, and loses her inhibitions, but consents consciously, albeit drunkenly, then consent is there and that's that. However, an unconscious woman or man is not fair game, no matter how they became unconscious.

Well, except that they are fair game for shaving cream, magic markers and a hand in a bowl of warm water..... that's how you learn not to fall asleep at a party....

[Coito ergo sum]

Nice to see Thunderf00t joined the Anti-Skepchicks! http://freethoughtblogs.com/thunderf00t ... misogynist

PZ Meyers, of course, rode in to the rescue... http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... an-beings/

[Seth]

Now, now, don't talk about yourself that way, I'm sure you're a perfectly nice person in the real world.

I'm a nice guy in the real world where my personal biases have been formed by the observation of and interactions with some of the behavior and attitudes of my fellow males. You know... having to explain that falling asleep after overdrinking is not actually consent.

Isn't it? If one voluntarily and knowingly becomes intoxicated, thus voluntarily placing one's person in the care of others, is it not a form of consent to whatever those other persons may choose to do with your unconscious body? Is it not your responsibility to care for your own self if you have concerns about what others might do to you while voluntarily unconscious? If you have such concerns, is it not your responsibility to make sure that you do not become voluntarily incapacitated when placing yourself in the care of those who are untrustworthy?

And then there's the matter of consent that IS given while intoxicated that one does not remember, or more likely regrets, the morning after. Is it not your responsibility to accept the consequences of giving such consent?

I do not accept as a given that intoxication is an absolute bar to consent or that anyone else is responsible for caring for you if you become voluntarily intoxicated and/or incapacitated. To me, any negative consequences that occur as a result of that voluntary decision fall into the "well, that was a stupid thing to do, I won't do THAT again" and the blame and responsibility lie with you, not others who may have taken advantage of the situation. There's a sucker born every minute, and a fool and her virginity are soon parted, so stay sober and keep your knees together and your knickers on. If you get drunk and get screwed, just accept the fact that YOU screwed up and don't blame other people for what's your fault.

Jesus.

All I can say is I hope they keep you away from the coma patients at the hospital.

What? They didn't say no, did they?

Coma patients did not become voluntarily intoxicated and willingly place themselves in the care of others, so your comment is just so much bilge.

[Seth]

Seth,

Can we still refer to extreme intoxication as a voluntary act even when the intoxicee (!) is addicted? In other words, do you think there is a duty of care to protect those who cannot help themselves?

Just a sidenote really.

Yes, and maybe. It depends on the circumstances. A girl goes to a bar with you and has some drinks, then you go home together where she becomes more intoxicated (voluntarily) in an amorous setting, perhaps even suggesting or leading you to believe that she wants sex but needs a few drinks to "loosen up" her inhibitions.

Having sex with her while she's voluntarily intoxicated under those circumstances should not qualify as rape because consent was at least arguably present. If she wakes up in the morning and realizes that you're a "coyote date" and regrets having sex, she should not be allowed to cry rape.

You find a girl passed out in the park, unconscious, take her behind the bushes and have sex with her, that's rape.

There must be some sort of consent, but the point is that merely because someone is or becomes intoxicated doesn't mean they lack the capacity to give, or to HAVE GIVEN consent prior to becoming intoxicated, or while intoxicated for that matter.

But it's situationally dependent, as you can see.

[Coito ergo sum]

Seth,

Can we still refer to extreme intoxication as a voluntary act even when the intoxicee (!) is addicted? In other words, do you think there is a duty of care to protect those who cannot help themselves?

Just a sidenote really.

Yes, and maybe. It depends on the circumstances. A girl goes to a bar with you and has some drinks, then you go home together where she becomes more intoxicated (voluntarily) in an amorous setting, perhaps even suggesting or leading you to believe that she wants sex but needs a few drinks to "loosen up" her inhibitions.

Having sex with her while she's voluntarily intoxicated under those circumstances should not qualify as rape because consent was at least arguably present. If she wakes up in the morning and realizes that you're a "coyote date" and regrets having sex, she should not be allowed to cry rape.

You find a girl passed out in the park, unconscious, take her behind the bushes and have sex with her, that's rape.

There must be some sort of consent, but the point is that merely because someone is or becomes intoxicated doesn't mean they lack the capacity to give, or to HAVE GIVEN consent prior to becoming intoxicated, or while intoxicated for that matter.

But it's situationally dependent, as you can see.

I think that if a woman is so drunk, even voluntarily so, that she is passed out and non-responsive, there can be no consent (even if she seems to be consenting before she passes out). Consent to an amorous encounter is not necessarily consent to sex anymore than consent to sex is automatic consent to anal or a nasty sanchez.

Also, if a woman so drunk that she is evidently not in command of her faculties, such as if she's babbling and only semi-conscious, then I don't think consent can be given.

There will, in the real world, always be questions of proof when you have two people alone and one says she was passed out cold and the other says she was an avid participant. But, if we assume the facts I stated above, then the result would be rape.

In practice, even as a young buck, I was always very careful with women and consent. I always had an innate sense or impulse not to hurt women and not to do something that a woman didn't like or want. So, while I did have my share of drunken boot-knocking, it was never with a woman who I thought was incoherent and certainly never with a woman who was passed out. My reaction to a passed out women is not to fuck her. It's to make sure she's o.k.

[hadespussercats]

I can't respond anymore in this thread, or I'm going to wind up calling someone a fucktard.

Someone is a fucktard. Ha. Take that, someone.

[Seth]

I can't respond anymore in this thread, or I'm going to wind up calling someone a fucktard.

Someone is a fucktard. Ha. Take that, someone.

I think many someones are fucktards. So there.

[Coito ergo sum]

I can't respond anymore in this thread, or I'm going to wind up calling someone a fucktard.

Someone is a fucktard. Ha. Take that, someone.

Sometimes I do look retarded at certain moments while fucking.... does that make me a fucktard?

[hadespussercats]

I can't respond anymore in this thread, or I'm going to wind up calling someone a fucktard.

Someone is a fucktard. Ha. Take that, someone.

Sometimes I do look retarded at certain moments while fucking.... does that make me a fucktard?

No, no. Or maybe?....

No.