'Belief systems' versus theism

[Audley Strange]

Exactly Rum, exactly. This is what I've been trying to get at on here for a while. To me political belief systems are no different from religious belief systems, both make ridiculous claims about morality and human nature, but at least the Religions were smart enough to promise Utopia after death.

I don't actually care if people believe in redistribution of wealth or the Last Judgement, but I do care when they assume it's something everyone must be made to endure.

[Rum]

I don't agree that they are the same thing, even if they do have some common features. Politics is essentially a way of trying to organise society to fit a prevailing ideology and to some extent at least in democracies that is about the way the majority of us would like to be organised. Of course it is more complicated than that, but it is about practical organisation ultimately. Ideology and religious faith do however have a lot in common I grant you and of course the church was very mixed up in government for centuries.

[Tero]

Exactly Rum, exactly. This is what I've been trying to get at on here for a while. To me political belief systems are no different from religious belief systems, both make ridiculous claims about morality and human nature, but at least the Religions were smart enough to promise Utopia after death.

I don't actually care if people believe in redistribution of wealth or the Last Judgement, but I do care when they assume it's something everyone must be made to endure.

I used to debate politics a bit more. Then I realized there is no right or wrong, just winners and losers. The same guys took charge in Russia when they switched over. Grab all you can.

[Audley Strange]

I don't agree that they are the same thing, even if they do have some common features. Politics is essentially a way of trying to organise society to fit a prevailing ideology and to some extent at least in democracies that is about the way the majority of us would like to be organised. Of course it is more complicated than that, but it is about practical organisation ultimately. Ideology and religious faith do however have a lot in common I grant you and of course the church was very mixed up in government for centuries.

Okay, you don't agree but then go on to define politics with a definition which to me seems exactly what religion is. I might be missing something, so I'll ask, what's the difference Rum?

[JimC]

I don't agree that they are the same thing, even if they do have some common features. Politics is essentially a way of trying to organise society to fit a prevailing ideology and to some extent at least in democracies that is about the way the majority of us would like to be organised. Of course it is more complicated than that, but it is about practical organisation ultimately. Ideology and religious faith do however have a lot in common I grant you and of course the church was very mixed up in government for centuries.

Okay, you don't agree but then go on to define politics with a definition which to me seems exactly what religion is. I might be missing something, so I'll ask, what's the difference Rum?

I'll have a go at answering, since I agree with Rum that, although there are significant overlaps, religion has some important differences to political ideology:

* ideology makes no claims about life after death, and doesn't threaten out-groups with eternal damnation
* ideology doesn't postulate supernatural entities
* in most cases, ideology doesn't pry into areas of personal moral choice, although it may seem to do so, if the ideology is also linked to a religious stance (many US republicans)

[Hermit]

I don't agree that they are the same thing, even if they do have some common features. Politics is essentially a way of trying to organise society to fit a prevailing ideology and to some extent at least in democracies that is about the way the majority of us would like to be organised. Of course it is more complicated than that, but it is about practical organisation ultimately. Ideology and religious faith do however have a lot in common I grant you and of course the church was very mixed up in government for centuries.

Okay, you don't agree but then go on to define politics with a definition which to me seems exactly what religion is. I might be missing something, so I'll ask, what's the difference Rum?

I'll have a go at answering, since I agree with Rum that, although there are significant overlaps, religion has some important differences to political ideology:

* ideology makes no claims about life after death, and doesn't threaten out-groups with eternal damnation
* ideology doesn't postulate supernatural entities
* in most cases, ideology doesn't pry into areas of personal moral choice, although it may seem to do so, if the ideology is also linked to a religious stance (many US republicans)

None of those differences do anything to invalidate the statement that "politics is essentially a way of trying to organise society to fit a prevailing ideology" or that "ideology and religious faith do have a lot in common".

[JimC]

I don't agree that they are the same thing, even if they do have some common features. Politics is essentially a way of trying to organise society to fit a prevailing ideology and to some extent at least in democracies that is about the way the majority of us would like to be organised. Of course it is more complicated than that, but it is about practical organisation ultimately. Ideology and religious faith do however have a lot in common I grant you and of course the church was very mixed up in government for centuries.

Okay, you don't agree but then go on to define politics with a definition which to me seems exactly what religion is. I might be missing something, so I'll ask, what's the difference Rum?

I'll have a go at answering, since I agree with Rum that, although there are significant overlaps, religion has some important differences to political ideology:

* ideology makes no claims about life after death, and doesn't threaten out-groups with eternal damnation
* ideology doesn't postulate supernatural entities
* in most cases, ideology doesn't pry into areas of personal moral choice, although it may seem to do so, if the ideology is also linked to a religious stance (many US republicans)

None of those differences do anything to invalidate the statement that "politics is essentially a way of trying to organise society to fit a prevailing ideology" or that "ideology and religious faith do have a lot in common".

I was simply supporting Rum's assertion that they are not "the same thing", while accepting that they do have major elements in common. They are categories with significant overlap, but also significant differences.

[Jason]

religious tits..

[JimC]

Nuns should always be encouraged to make a clean breast of it in confession...

[Audley Strange]

I don't agree that they are the same thing, even if they do have some common features. Politics is essentially a way of trying to organise society to fit a prevailing ideology and to some extent at least in democracies that is about the way the majority of us would like to be organised. Of course it is more complicated than that, but it is about practical organisation ultimately. Ideology and religious faith do however have a lot in common I grant you and of course the church was very mixed up in government for centuries.

Okay, you don't agree but then go on to define politics with a definition which to me seems exactly what religion is. I might be missing something, so I'll ask, what's the difference Rum?

I'll have a go at answering, since I agree with Rum that, although there are significant overlaps, religion has some important differences to political ideology:

* ideology makes no claims about life after death, and doesn't threaten out-groups with eternal damnation
* ideology doesn't postulate supernatural entities
* in most cases, ideology doesn't pry into areas of personal moral choice, although it may seem to do so, if the ideology is also linked to a religious stance (many US republicans)

Well cheers Jim but...

1. I'll grant you the point, except ideology might not threaten outgroups with eternal damnation but with genocide, war, murder, imprisonment while using a moralist rheotric almost entirely similar to that of religions.

2. I'd say concepts like "The Invisible hand" or "the public interest" are supernatural claims, like national debt, or "threat to national security" or "interests over seas", social fictions that are just as weird sounding and preposterous as spunk pigeons and 800 year old men. It also treats it's prophets as if they were in fact divinely inspired, Rabid Randoids or Mad Marxists even those anarchic chaps over in North Korea have deified humans. Shit that appallingly pig ignorant fat junkie cunt Churchill is seen as one of our national heroes. Might as well have voted Iain Huntley as Childminder of the Century. I could go on and on about how Politics went from God to Royal as god to Self as god but I'll leave that there.


3. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME!!!?!??!!

Sorry Jim, I really take exception to that. Our entire structure of politics is based on the ideas of controlling the personal "moral" choices of the public. What is taxation if it's not you being legally forced to "do your bit", what are laws if they are not "behave as you are told or else." Certainly some regimes may be less austere than others. Politics is not just something that happens in Parliaments. It in enforced

Most people do not vote on issues. They vote traditionally. The pride in which I hear fucking idiots brag "I've voted labour all my life just like my father and his father" leads me to think
that those defending politics as being separate from religion are like those Jehovah Witch Doctors that make the claim "Well it's not meant to be taken literally."

Both religion and ideology are in essence exactly the same thing, they are control systems in which to organise a society around for the benefit of those in control, they work almost mechanically. Sure one might be a lighter shade of blue than the other, the newer mosdel might run a bit smoother and quieter. Their purposes and methods are almost identical and their adherents just as programmed and deluded.

Bear in mind I am not talking about personal faith or personal political beliefs, but Belief systems.

[Thinking Aloud]

Dogma.

You can have it in religion (you almost have to have it in religion) and you can have it in politics. Dogma is the result of any belief system that doesn't take reality into account, and religion is just a sub-set of it.

Or something. I dunno...

[mistermack]

Why do people struggle with their beliefs? Because they were indoctrinated with rubbish by well-meaning parents. When they grow up, they begin to realise that it's rubbish, but can't bear to let go. They're hooked.

But what do they do? In spite of their own doubts, they still inflict the same crap on their kids.

While I can respect people who have beliefs that are different to mine, I can't respect them for forcing something they aren't sure about on their kids, as if it's true. Just because "everybody does it", that doesn't mean it's right.

My sister is a bit scatter brained, but she got big respect from me once. She's a catholic, and I think that she believes, but she was laughing about her son one day, when someone asked if he believed in god.
She said, "he told me he doesn't believe in god, but he definitely believes in Santa Clause".

I think the kid got it about right. There IS solid evidence for Santa. He brings you presents.
God does fuck-all.

[Seth]

It is easy to forget that, especially here in the US, where the most out-spoken believers are generally the most hateful, least compassionate, and most close-minded of people. There really are believers who take their faith seriously and try to use it to become more compassionate, more loving people. Too bad they are often the least out-spoken.

Sounds to me like you're talking about Atheists, who are indeed "out-spoken believers" in their own self-righteousness and priggish intolerance.

See if I help you get a ride to the gas station when you are at the roadside with car trouble.

See if I'd ask...

[Seth]

It is easy to forget that, especially here in the US, where the most out-spoken believers are generally the most hateful, least compassionate, and most close-minded of people. There really are believers who take their faith seriously and try to use it to become more compassionate, more loving people. Too bad they are often the least out-spoken.

Sounds to me like you're talking about Atheists, who are indeed "out-spoken believers" in their own self-righteousness and priggish intolerance.

Have a look in the mirror, Seth. Your hatred and intolerance oozes from every other post of yours.

Nah, it just looks that way to you, viewing me through the lens of your own hatred and intolerance. You can dish it out, but you can't take it.

[Hermit]

It is easy to forget that, especially here in the US, where the most out-spoken believers are generally the most hateful, least compassionate, and most close-minded of people. There really are believers who take their faith seriously and try to use it to become more compassionate, more loving people. Too bad they are often the least out-spoken.

Sounds to me like you're talking about Atheists, who are indeed "out-spoken believers" in their own self-righteousness and priggish intolerance.

Have a look in the mirror, Seth. Your hatred and intolerance oozes from every other post of yours.

Nah

Denial rules. You compassionate, tolerant commie-lover, you. And how kindly you speak of the lower classes, poms, Aussies and generally anyone who does not agree with your ideology. Onya.