Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

[Audley Strange]

Audley

Strong emotion certainly is a major factor in the continued hostilities, and on both sides.

No, it's not just strong emotion, the separation of Transjordan was a seperation of two religious and ethnic groups who had more or less coexisted and the creation of Israel both as a beseiged country amidst a sea of Muslims and the resentment of having land taken from them so others could claim it is not strong emotion, it is a design flaw, an intractable problem. When you consider that one side had nearly been exterminated and the others their land and homes stolen from them, you're not going to find that the start conditions for the state were going to be stable and rational on either side.

The question of "who started it" has a very clear cut answer, but that will not solve anything.

Well yes it won't solve anything, but how does it have a clear cut answer? Who are you blaming? The Jews? The British for leaving the area? The Allied forces for not stopping Hitler before the gas chambers? Gavrilo Princip for instigating the first Open international murder festival?

Things do not happen in a vacuum, cause and effect happens mechanically. To arbitrarily pick a specific point in time and go "from here!" doesn't tell us anything but your own biases.
Which you, if I may say so, seem to be wording wrong.

Your issue is that the hostilities are asymmetrical and thus the side who are more brutal are the bad guys. Well let me ask something. How fucking stupid do you need to be to keep throwing rocks at a giant that will consistently over-reacts and brutalises your friends and family, and whats more, you know he's going to do it as you pick up the rock and conversely if you've got a shotgun and some tit and his gang mates aim a 9mm at your head how fucking stupid would you have to be to worry about retaliating in kind?

My view is that a solution must come from Israel, since they hold the power. Nothing from the Palestinians is going to work, since they do not have the power to implement any such solutions.

The solution will not come from Israel unless it's Israel's final solution to the Arab problem, which it might well be. It's not going to come from Palestine since as pointed out they'd finish what the Nazi's started. The only way round this as far as I can see is and international intervention, but as long as the U.S. keeps voting against action as related to the terms in 1967 (prop 242 I think?) nothing will get done.

Personally, fuck them all. It's horrible, but if Yahweh cultists are killing Yahweh cultists then we have less Yahweh cultists to breed more Yahweh cultists. Seems like a self devouring organism to me.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Mack, when you understand the difference between "born", and "invade", let me know. Your language skills aren't serving you well right now.

As far as being frustrated, yes, I am, a little. But not for the reason you impute; more because I had expected a better discussion from you than I had already gotten from Groper ... but you seem even more biased. It's cool, you're a hard-left guy and that filters your every perception; I get it.

*****

Groper, because you insistently refuse to apply the same logic to Israelis who hate Palestinians because they have lost innocent family members to Hamas or rockets or suicide bombers. You have insistently applied a double-standard to the issue.

******

[Blind groper]

Groper, because you insistently refuse to apply the same logic to Israelis who hate Palestinians because they have lost innocent family members to Hamas or rockets or suicide bombers. You have insistently applied a double-standard to the issue.

******

I understand the hatred both sides. However, what you, Thumpa, consistently refuse to acknowledge is that the Palestinians actually have a rationale for their opposition to the Israelis, whereas the Israelis have simply been brutes.

[Blind groper]

How fucking stupid do you need to be to keep throwing rocks at a giant that will consistently over-reacts and brutalises your friends and family, .

I totally agree. But being smart is not what drives this. It is hatred.
There is hatred on both sides, but at least the Palestinians have good cause for theirs.

[mistermack]

Mack, when you understand the difference between "born", and "invade", let me know. Your language skills aren't serving you well right now.

I understand the difference perfectly well. What I don't understand, is where you get this weird idea that all an invader needs to do, is to subjugate a country long enough to have children, and then somehow you own what you stole.
And I don't understand how you can equate the losses of territory of Germany, a country that plunged the world into two world wars, with the innocent Arabs in Palestine.

Germany was deliberately weakened, in an attempt to ensure that it didn't rise again, and start more world wars. And quite rightly. Poland and Russia suffered incredible hardships at the hands of the Germans.

The Palestinians harmed nobody, and didn't deserve the shit that's been dumped on them.
In their position, I would want to kill the people who stole my homeland. That's why they have my sympathy.
And If I was a Jew with a conscience, I would fuck off out of there fast.
And there are plenty of Jews who think the same.

[Audley Strange]

How fucking stupid do you need to be to keep throwing rocks at a giant that will consistently over-reacts and brutalises your friends and family, .

I totally agree. But being smart is not what drives this. It is hatred.
There is hatred on both sides, but at least the Palestinians have good cause for theirs.

I'd say trying to rid yourself of terrorists is a good cause too. The road to hell and all that...

[Hermit]

I cannot equate them, and neither can you, since we do not know how the people there are affected and how they feel. I do know that the Palestinian people were devastated by the formation of Israel and retain a deep resentment, and often hatred, towards Israel to this day. I do not know how the people of East Prussia feel, and I doubt you do either.

Thanks for telling me for what I know or feel. It so happens that my father was born in East Prussia. So was my grandfather and his eleven siblings. Along with a rather large family and its even larger circle of friends an acquaintances, all of whom have lost everything in 1945, I do think I have some inkling about how the Prussians feel. You haven't heard of them because they don't strap bombs around their waists and blow themselves up in pizza parlours, nor do they send rockets into residential areas.

There is no difference between the occupation of Prussia and Palestine. In both cases its native population was driven out, its properties confiscated and a different nation owns it now. The only difference you have so far pointed out is that the former was part of Germany which started both world wars, and therefore, you argue, the inhabitants of Prussia, Pommerania and Silesia have forfeit the right to live where they were born and to their property. That, to me, is a moral argument, and a tenuous one.

[Blind groper]

Nice map, Hermit. Thanks for posting.

That still leaves a lot of differences between East Prussia and Palestine. Even if you could convince me that the East Prussians had a major injustice done against them, which is possible, that still does not make the injustice done to the Palestinians any less.

[Hermit]

That still leaves a lot of differences between East Prussia and Palestine.

So you keep saying. I just keep pointing out the similarities.

In the end I'm not primarily concerned with justice and other moral considerations. Allow me to repeat something I posted on page four:

"I don't care about who is morally right or who is to blame, nor whose land it is or who started the violence. I don't even care who killed more civilians. I do prefer the hegemony of a nation over the area that has at least a semblance of a secular and democratic government over one that is bound to take the form of sharia law and jihad. So I am on Israel's side.

Callous? I don't think so. If the Palestinians prevailed, their rulers would push the Jews into the sea and continue shafting their own subjects regardless. I'm being pragmatic."

[Warren Dew]

What the whole region needs is a benevolent yet ruthless atheist dictatorship.

Palestine, or Germany?

[Warren Dew]

I certainly wouldn't extend that right to the kids of invaders though. Their homeland is elsewhere.

So you wouldn't give citizenship to children of illegal immigrants?

Certainly not. Not unless I was running a country that WANTED immigration. And they qualified as desirable immigrants.

Presumably the desirable immigrants would be legal, which is why I specified "illegal" immigrants. Good to see you're being consistent in this case.

Me, I think East Prussians deserve some sort of compensation. Even the Chinese government is now compensating owners of lands that Mao seized.

[Blind groper]

If the Palestinians prevailed, their rulers would push the Jews into the sea and continue shafting their own subjects regardless. I'm being pragmatic."

You may note that I am not suggesting a solution in which "the Palestinians prevail". It is not going to happen, anyway. The Palestinians are too weak and almost helpless compared to Israel. What I suggest is a negotiated settlement with a new independent and sovereign Palestine which includes the territories claimed by Israel from military conquest. I cannot see Israel agreeing to this without major level pressure from the outside world, including the USA.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I understand the difference perfectly well. What I don't understand, is where you get this weird idea that all an invader needs to do, is to subjugate a country long enough to have children, and then somehow you own what you stole.

Except that that isn't my argument here.

And I don't understand how you can equate the losses of territory of Germany, a country that plunged the world into two world wars, with the innocent Arabs in Palestine.

Because I'm not addressing the loss of territory by a political entity, but rather the human suffering imposed by forced relocation. Both Germans and Palestinians suffered this.

Germany was deliberately weakened, in an attempt to ensure that it didn't rise again, and start more world wars. And quite rightly. Poland and Russia suffered incredible hardships at the hands of the Germans.

The Palestinians harmed nobody, and didn't deserve the shit that's been dumped on them.
In their position, I would want to kill the people who stole my homeland. That's why they have my sympathy.

Except that unborn people cannot steal anything. Holding them responsible for the actions of their forefathers is no different than executing you for a murder you father committed. This is the logic of Original Sin.

And If I was a Jew with a conscience, I would fuck off out of there fast.
And there are plenty of Jews who think the same.

I probably would, too. But had someone in my family been killed in an effort to make me move, I'd be angry, too.

I'm not saying that Israel has clean hands. What I am saying is that wrongs cannot be repaired by committing more of them.

I understand the hatred both sides. However, what you, Thumpa, consistently refuse to acknowledge is that the Palestinians actually have a rationale for their opposition to the Israelis, whereas the Israelis have simply been brutes.

No, I understand their rationale for opposition.

What I don't understand is why they think killing civilians is the right thing to do. Is my point really that obscure?

[Blind groper]

Thumpa

Killing civilians is never right. By anyone. That point is not at all obscure and I agree.
I have said all along, though, that I understand why Palestinians do what they do. Not that I approve.
But my approval for the Israelis is even less.

A year or three back, when Israel invaded the Gaza Strip in retaliation for a few rocket attacks, they shelled civilians homes and killed over 100 civilians, and in the middle of that, they shelled a Palestinian hospital.

Now, I do not approve of the rocket attacks. But they have never been very effective, and little damage is done and even fewer lives lost. Does this justify the massive retaliation? That is exactly the tactic used by the Nazis in WWII against partisans. Israel has much to answer for. They are using the same tactics the Nazis used, and after the holocaust, they should be the people least likely to imitate the Nazi assholes.

Nor will their retaliations stop the conflict. It did not stop the partisans fighting the Nazis, and it will not stop the Palestinians fighting for their right to their own homeland.

[mistermack]

Presumably the desirable immigrants would be legal, which is why I specified "illegal" immigrants. Good to see you're being consistent in this case.

Nooooo, try to pay attention. I said if the CHILDREN of illegal immigrants were desirable, I might let them stay. If they had qualified as a surgeon for example, before coming to my attention, I wouldn't want to waste the public money that had been spent on their education.
But the parents would be on the first plane out.

Me, I think East Prussians deserve some sort of compensation. Even the Chinese government is now compensating owners of lands that Mao seized.

Possibly. But are the East Prussians going to pay compensation for the 20 million Russian lives, or the six million jewish lives, or all the others? I think they're lucky to be alive. That's their "compensation".