Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by laklak » Wed May 30, 2012 1:48 am

Pesky 'pithecans. We just shoot 'em round these parts. Used to be a bounty on them, but now we just use them for chum.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Hermit » Wed May 30, 2012 2:34 am

mistermack wrote:So you think that if your parents steal something, then once it passes to you, it's legitimate?

The problem with that is that it's the Jews themselves who don't agree with you.
They are demanding back, and getting, valuables and property that were taken by the Nazis. Even though it's all been passed on, and sold on, many times.

How come it only works one way? How come Jewish property must be returned, and Palestinian birthright is gone forever? Because it's one rule for the Jews, and the complete opposite for the Palestinians.

And what I justify is a war of liberation, not murder.
You steal someone's home, you take the chance of harm. And so do your kids.
Does that mean Germany ought to get East Prussia back from Russia and West Prussia from Poland?
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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Blind groper » Wed May 30, 2012 2:45 am

Hermit wrote:Does that mean Germany ought to get East Prussia back from Russia and West Prussia from Poland?
There is a big difference. Conquered territories usually involve the inhabitants staying where they are and retaining the possession of their homes.

However, I have not personally suggested Israel needs to be destroyed. It is too late for that. What is needed is a new attitude by the Israeli government, in which they accept they have mistreated Palestinians, and are willing to make amends by supporting a decent independent Palestinian state.

I read a magazine article a while back, written by an Israeli, in which he admitted exactly that, and stated that many Israelis are well aware of their own part in a crime against the Palestinians, and that Israel needs to wake up to that crime, and make amends. This tells me that some Israelis are decent people who know what is the right thing to do.
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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Hermit » Wed May 30, 2012 2:57 am

Blind groper wrote:
Hermit wrote:Does that mean Germany ought to get East Prussia back from Russia and West Prussia from Poland?
There is a big difference. Conquered territories usually involve the inhabitants staying where they are and retaining the possession of their homes.
Can you expand on that? I don't get what you mean there.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Blind groper » Wed May 30, 2012 3:31 am

Hermit

Military conquest of other people's lands is something that is repugnant to me. However, most such conquests in the past have involved the inhabitants staying where they are, and having to accept a change in governing authority. Lots of atrocities and inhuman actions go with such conquest, but mostly, people get to keep their homes.

The take over of Palestine by Jews looking to create a Jewish homeland involved, to a large extent, expelling the locals from their homes. It was not just a change of government for those people. They were driven out to become refugees.
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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Warren Dew » Wed May 30, 2012 4:04 am

mistermack wrote:I certainly wouldn't extend that right to the kids of invaders though. Their homeland is elsewhere.
So you wouldn't give citizenship to children of illegal immigrants?

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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Hermit » Wed May 30, 2012 4:19 am

Blind groper wrote:Military conquest of other people's lands is something that is repugnant to me. However, most such conquests in the past have involved the inhabitants staying where they are, and having to accept a change in governing authority. Lots of atrocities and inhuman actions go with such conquest, but mostly, people get to keep their homes.

The take over of Palestine by Jews looking to create a Jewish homeland involved, to a large extent, expelling the locals from their homes. It was not just a change of government for those people. They were driven out to become refugees.
You might want to acquaint yourself with the relevant bits of history. The Wikipedia entry on the subject is as good a place to start as any. Here are a couple of extracts from it:
After Potsdam, a series of expulsions of ethnic Germans occurred throughout the Soviet-controlled Eastern European countries. Property and materiel in the affected territory that had belonged to Germany or to Germans was confiscated and either transferred to the Soviet Union, nationalised, or redistributed among the citizens.
Different situations emerged in northern East Prussia regarding Königsberg (renamed Kaliningrad) and the adjacent Memel territory around Memel (Klaipėda). The Königsberg area of East Prussia was annexed by the Soviet Union, becoming an exclave of the Russian Soviet Republic. Memel was integrated into the Lithuanian Soviet Republic. Many Germans were evacuated from East Prussia and the Memel territory by Nazi authorities during Operation Hannibal or fled in panic as the Red Army approached. At the war's end, most surviving Germans were soon expelled. Ethnic Russians and the families of military staff were settled in the area. In June 1946, 114,070 Germans and 41,029 Soviet citizens were registered as living in the Kaliningrad Oblast, with an unknown number of unregistered Germans ignored. However, between June 1945 and 1947, roughly half a million Germans were expelled. Between 24 August and 26 October 1948, 21 transports with a total of 42,094 Germans left the Kaliningrad Oblast for the Soviet Occupation Zone. The last remaining Germans were expelled between November 1949 (1,401 persons) and January 1950 (7 persons). Thousands of German children, called the wolf children, had been left orphaned and unattended or died with their parents during the harsh winter without food.
(Bolding added by me.)
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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Blind groper » Wed May 30, 2012 4:48 am

Hermit

No argument from me. That sort of thing also happens. It is a terrible result of war. Mostly, though, the resident population stays put and accepts a change of government. Of course, a smaller sub-set of the population is often exiled or executed. Intellectuals etc.

I read a statement some years ago, by a historian, to the effect that military conquest for most of the past 1000 odd years meant little to the ordinary people, who just ended up paying tax to a different group of people. Of course, patriotism at the nation level is a fairly recent phenomenon. Last few hundred years only. Before that, loyalties tended to be family, tribe, local province.

But the fact that the evil of eviction is not confined to Israel does not make Israel's action right.
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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Hermit » Wed May 30, 2012 4:57 am

So, let me ask again: Does that mean Germany ought to get East Prussia back from Russia and West Prussia from Poland?
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Blind groper » Wed May 30, 2012 5:36 am

Probably not.


World War I saw a lot of territorial changes. The Austro-Hungarian Empire broke up. The German Empire broke up. The Ottoman Empire broke up. All those were aggressors in that war, and all tried to expand their borders at others expense, so there is no sympathy due to their political organisations. The welfare of the ordinary people, of course, is another matter. I cannot see any benefit in trying to re-establish old imperial boundaries, though.
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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Robert_S » Wed May 30, 2012 6:31 am

What the whole region needs is a benevolent yet ruthless atheist dictatorship.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Hermit » Wed May 30, 2012 6:34 am

Blind groper wrote:Probably not.

World War I saw a lot of territorial changes. The Austro-Hungarian Empire broke up. The German Empire broke up. The Ottoman Empire broke up. All those were aggressors in that war, and all tried to expand their borders at others expense, so there is no sympathy due to their political organisations. The welfare of the ordinary people, of course, is another matter. I cannot see any benefit in trying to re-establish old imperial boundaries, though.
OK. Let me rephrase the question: If the Palestinians are entitled to the land they were driven out from and the property they were dispossessed of, why not the Germans?
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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Blind groper » Wed May 30, 2012 9:00 am

Hermit wrote:OK. Let me rephrase the question: If the Palestinians are entitled to the land they were driven out from and the property they were dispossessed of, why not the Germans?
Hermit

I struggle to answer this in a way that is clear cut and unambiguous.
The key thing for any such question is the people themselves. For example ; both Britain and Argentina lay claim to the Falkland Islands. Who should win? In my view, it is the Falkland Islanders who should win. If they want to stick with Britain, then fine. If they would rather switch to Argentinian governance, then fine also.

Should East Prussia be returned to Germany?
As I pointed out, Germany has forfeited any right to such consideration. However, if the people of East Prussia really want to become part of Germany, and Germany is happy to go along, then I would say, OK. However, I have no idea what the people of East Prussia want. Maybe they would prefer to be their own independent nation?
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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Hermit » Wed May 30, 2012 11:10 am

Blind groper wrote:
Hermit wrote:OK. Let me rephrase the question: If the Palestinians are entitled to the land they were driven out from and the property they were dispossessed of, why not the Germans?
As I pointed out, Germany has forfeited any right to such consideration. However, if the people of East Prussia really want to become part of Germany, and Germany is happy to go along, then I would say, OK. However, I have no idea what the people of East Prussia want. Maybe they would prefer to be their own independent nation?
Oh. I see. More moralising. Millions of Germans have forfeited their birthright because of their governments' deeds. You are aware, are you not, that no German had an opportunity to vote for the government that took them into WWI and that Hitler seized dictatorial power on the strength of 33.09% of the vote going to the NSDAP? Also, "What the people of of East Prussia want" must be a bit of a joke. All Germans that had not already fled from the advance of the Soviet army were driven out. Same goes for the Germans of West Prussia, Pommerania and Silesia.

In short I see no reason why they are in a different position to, say, the Palestinians. In both cases their land and possessions have been expropriated, and they have been expelled.
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Re: Deep Hatred of Black People in Israel

Post by Tyrannical » Wed May 30, 2012 12:47 pm

At one point it was considered to give the Jews part of Australia as a homeland and State.
Damn, would that have saved a lot of headaches.
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