Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

[Coito ergo sum]

Kennard said the association had no record of Zimmerman's group registering as a neighborhood watch."The alleged participant ignored everything the Neighborhood Watch Program stands for, and it resulted in a young man losing his life," Kennard wrote.

Nothing in it about not carrying a gun. Surely such a prime and important rule would be in the handbook. Do you have any information that Z was ever told he ought not carry a gun?

Please show me where in the rule book points out about carrying a gun. Not to mention it appears Zimmerman's group was not even registered as a neighborhood watch. Maybe that's why he thought rules didn't apply to him.

There is nothing in the handbook prohibiting anyone lawfully licensed to carry a handgun from carrying it.

What rules are you referring to?

He ran BEFORE Zimmerman got out of his car, according to the 911 tape. He did not start running after Z got out of the car. It was BEFORE Z got out of the car.

Well that sounds even worse. Clearly pursuing martin whereas he should have stayed put.

LOL - doesn't matter what Zimmerman does. It's always wrong. Martin ran when nobody was chasing him. That's the fact. And, I bet if Martin ran, and tripped, and Z had stayed in the car, you'd be bitching that he should have followed so he could have helped him up.

We don't know the details, but he said Martin looked like he was on drugs

what was martin doing that made him look like he was on drugs? you can't just say someone looks like he's on drugs, there has to be some indication to make you think that, otherwise it's just pure immagination.

I don't know. Probably behaving erratically, as if he was on drugs, I would imagine. We can't know if Zimmerman was making it up at the time. It was what he said. And, you're so hot on the "rules" - they specifically refer to people looking like they are on drugs as being cause for suspicion. So, that's what the handbook says.

[kiki5711]

I don't know. Probably behaving erratically, as if he was on drugs, I would imagine. We can't know if Zimmerman was making it up at the time. It was what he said.

you don't know; probably behaving erratically, I would imagine; can't know if zimm was making it up at the time.

Yes: All sound proof evidence.

There is nothing in the handbook prohibiting anyone lawfully licensed to carry a handgun from carrying it.

Well, where the heck is this handbook? If you've read it, please share the good news.

LOL - doesn't matter what Zimmerman does. It's always wrong. Martin ran when nobody was chasing him. That's the fact. And, I bet if Martin ran, and tripped, and Z had stayed in the car, you'd be bitching that he should have followed so he could have helped him up.

Sorry, no cigar on that one! very poor answer when nothing else comes to mind.

[mistermack]

What a load of crap about people who don't like guns being afraid of guns.

I have not the slightest fear of guns. But I am afraid of bullets.
Bullets are completely brainless, as are most of their owners, who can't be trusted to even load a gun.
How many of the "right" people get killed by bullets? Compared to the "wrong" people?

I would say that it's overwhelmingly the wrong people who get killed, and the people who deserve it who don't.

Since I count myself as one who doesn't deserve it, I try to avoid bullets where I can.
And the bullets are generally found in guns owned by wankers and tossers.

[Seth]

Kiki, you need to understand that "neighborhood watch" is an idea, not an organization, and particularly it's not a government agency that has the power to impose rules on anyone and enforce them. The "COPS" program you mention is an organized volunteer group sponsored by local law enforcement, so if you want to be a member, you abide by its rules, but not all "neighborhood watch" groups are the same, and there is no legal requirement that ANY such group be a member of an umbrella organization or that members of a private community neighborhood watch group subscribe to or obey regulations some national umbrella group may have created to cover their assess in the event someone gets hurt while participating in a sanctioned group.

The only regulations that anyone who is a member of ANY community in the nation who chooses to "watch their neighborhood" for criminal activity are compelled to obey are state and federal criminal and civil statutes. That's it.

Anything else is purely voluntary and non binding.

If Zimmerman wanted to be his own personal one-man neighborhood watch, he has every right to do so, and every right to set his own rules of engagement, so long as they are within the law.

Screw the liability-nuts who say "don't get involved, you might get hurt." All that does is facilitate crime. People SHOULD be armed and SHOULD get involved in confronting and suppressing crime in their communities, that's how civilization is maintained. Not by cowardice and misguided reliance on the state to protect you.

[Coito ergo sum]

I don't know. Probably behaving erratically, as if he was on drugs, I would imagine. We can't know if Zimmerman was making it up at the time. It was what he said.

you don't know; probably behaving erratically, I would imagine; can't know if zimm was making it up at the time.

Yes: All sound proof evidence.

I never claimed to know. I only stated what he said.

You're the one concluding that Zimmerman was making it up. I'm the one saying I can't know. Why can't you just admit that you don't know? You only know what he said, because it's on tape, right?

YOU DON"T KNOW HE WAS MAKING THINGS UP, YET YOU KEEP SAYING THAT HE WAS. Right?

There is nothing in the handbook prohibiting anyone lawfully licensed to carry a handgun from carrying it.

Well, where the heck is this handbook? If you've read it, please share the good news.

I gave you the link in the post where I referenced it. Why don't you bother reading something about the case before you fart out your opinions?

LOL - doesn't matter what Zimmerman does. It's always wrong. Martin ran when nobody was chasing him. That's the fact. And, I bet if Martin ran, and tripped, and Z had stayed in the car, you'd be bitching that he should have followed so he could have helped him up.

Sorry, no cigar on that one! very poor answer when nothing else comes to mind.

LOL -- why can't you just admit that you make shit up to fit your preconceived notion that Zimmerman must have been a racist gun-nut who shot Martin for no reason? I mean, that is what you think? The facts don't matter to you.

[Tero]

An idiot gun nut finds himself a mission. A different idiot spots him, runs off then beats him up.

It's just too bad Zimmerman did not die of his injuries. We would have got rid of two idiots.

As our races get mixed up, I can see class coming back. In place of racism, people beat up those on a lower rung.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm content to await the verdict of the jury. There are so many misstatements in this thread that addressing them is an exercise in futility, though.

[FBM]

I'm content to await the verdict of the jury. There are so many misstatements in this thread that addressing them is an exercise in futility, though.

[kiki5711]

LOL -- why can't you just admit that you make shit up to fit your preconceived notion that Zimmerman must have been a racist gun-nut who shot Martin for no reason? I mean, that is what you think? The facts don't matter to you.

Actually, that is your specialty. you have an excuse for everything zimmerman did. In that handbook pdf file you posted, it constantly says to just call the police and do not take matters into your hands.

specifically from your posted handbook:

What you will not do is get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehension of any suspicious persons. This is the job of law enforcement agency.
Heroes can be wounded or killed. Remember that apprehension is the job of your police department.
Your police department, appreciates you acting as their extra eyes and ears. Sometimes your suspicions are unfounded. If you are wrong, they understand you will not always be right. As a good citizen and a neighborhood watch participant, your job is to give them information, you base your suspicions on.

Martin ran when nobody was chasing him. That's the fact

those are your words. not mine. And on top of it all, it doesn't even make sense.

The end.

[maiforpeace]

I'm just interrupting this thread for a little comedy relief. When I saw this I immediately thought of this thread and of the gun accidents waiting to happen by people mishandling guns or by mistaking identities.

This show is pretty funny, I'm sorry they only has couple of seasons.

[kiki5711]

[Warren Dew]

I'm just interrupting this thread for a little comedy relief. When I saw this I immediately thought of this thread and of the gun accidents waiting to happen by people mishandling guns or by mistaking identities.

This show is pretty funny, I'm sorry they only has couple of seasons.

Just shows how dangerous laser pointers are. They should be banned!

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm content to await the verdict of the jury. There are so many misstatements in this thread that addressing them is an exercise in futility, though.

The question is, what misstatements is he referring to. Almost all of them are coming from the "pro-Martin" camp, which is rife with nonsense like:

Zimmerman wasn't even injured!
Zimmerman was told stay in his car!
Zimmerman was instructed and trained not to carry a gun!
Zimmerman is psycho!
Zimmerman is paranoid!
Zimmerman is a "gun nut!"
Zimmerman ran Martin down like a dog!
Zimmerman is a racist!
The police are racists and refused to arrest Zimmerman because they don't care if a black person get's killed!
The police did not investigate!
Zimmerman made racist statements to the 911 dispatcher!
If Zimmerman followed Martin, then he caused the incident and therefore he is guilty of murder!
Stand Your Ground law means that if someone just looks at you the wrong way, you can kill them!

Some of this isn't about "waiting for the evidence to be in." Much of what is coming from the Martin side of the aisle is hyper-prejudiced and non-fact based. You can hear the shrill emotive responses -- it's anti-gun, and assumptive that whatever happens between a black person and a non-black person must be racist. Almost to a person in the pro-Martin camp here, we see it starts generally at two points - he had a gun, and he got out of his car - after that, it's murder, and the blinders go on to anything else.

Myself, FBM, Warren Dew, etc., are generally advancing the notion that we only know what can be clearly demonstrated from the objective evidence, and that other than that, we don't know, and have to await the full investigation and presentation of all the facts. So, we're the ones actually arguing "let's wait for the facts", and it is the pro-Martin camp that is screaming bloody murder - literally.

[Coito ergo sum]

LOL -- why can't you just admit that you make shit up to fit your preconceived notion that Zimmerman must have been a racist gun-nut who shot Martin for no reason? I mean, that is what you think? The facts don't matter to you.

Actually, that is your specialty. you have an excuse for everything zimmerman did. In that handbook pdf file you posted, it constantly says to just call the police and do not take matters into your hands.

specifically from your posted handbook:

What you will not do is get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehension of any suspicious persons. This is the job of law enforcement agency.
Heroes can be wounded or killed. Remember that apprehension is the job of your police department.
Your police department, appreciates you acting as their extra eyes and ears. Sometimes your suspicions are unfounded. If you are wrong, they understand you will not always be right. As a good citizen and a neighborhood watch participant, your job is to give them information, you base your suspicions on.

And, the evidence that Zimmerman initiated physical involvement with Martin is......what?

He saw something he said was suspicious. He called 911. He got out of his truck when he saw Martin starting to leave the scene, and recounted the events in real time as he followed after Martin for a few seconds, and then the dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that," and he said o.k., and then stopped, and Martin was gone for over a minute and half to a minute 45 seconds. Then the 911 call ends and shortly thereafter the shooting occurs.

I'm not saying that we can know that Martin started the fight by attacking Zimmerman, but by the same token we can't know that Zimmerman started the fight with Martin. It may be that Martin came back on the scene and initiated the physical confrontation, not Zimmerman. You don't seem willing to acknowledge that possibility.

Martin ran when nobody was chasing him. That's the fact

those are your words. not mine. And on top of it all, it doesn't even make sense.

The end.

Listen to the 911 tape. It's absolutely clear. I can't make you actually read and listen to that tape, but if you do you'll see that I'm right about it. You can hear the friggin' car door open.

[tattuchu]

Coito, I don't know why you've bothered in these threads. It does seem an exercise in futility. But I do appreciate your informative posts.