Unarmed teen shooting: the debate rages on...

[Tyrannical]

Neighborhood watch volunteers are trained to be the eyes and ears for police. According to the leader of the national Neighborhood Watch organization, volunteers are not to be armed and they are not to pursue anyone. They are asked to call police if they see or hear something suspicious.

If he was told "we don't need you to do that" then that is what he should have done. Not gone any further, for any reason, not to get more accurate location or or pursue martin for any reason, and if he was a neighborhood watch volunteer chosen by "the neighborhood", then while on duty, he should not have been armed.

There's no proof that martin was acting suspicious to the degree that he looked like a dangerous criminal, except in the eyes of zimmerman.

Due to zimmerman's perception of martin, he stepped out of his boundery of duty which led to a confrontation and martin's death.

Martin also had the right to STAND YOUR GROUND" law to protect himself. He didn't know who zimm was as he never identified himself, (not in any reports that I know of), and what zimms intent was by following him and looking at him.

Shooting martin while fighting with him was only in self defense because he couldn't handle the situation any other way, but the cowardly way out and kill. He brought the confrontation on himself and therefore I don't consider it self defense.

He should have been told to unholster his weapon and take the safety off, because the police can not arrive in time. That advice might have both saved Zimmerman his injuries, and Trayvon his life.

[kiki5711]

Neighborhood watch volunteers are trained to be the eyes and ears for police. According to the leader of the national Neighborhood Watch organization, volunteers are not to be armed and they are not to pursue anyone. They are asked to call police if they see or hear something suspicious.

If he was told "we don't need you to do that" then that is what he should have done. Not gone any further, for any reason, not to get more accurate location or or pursue martin for any reason, and if he was a neighborhood watch volunteer chosen by "the neighborhood", then while on duty, he should not have been armed.

There's no proof that martin was acting suspicious to the degree that he looked like a dangerous criminal, except in the eyes of zimmerman.

Due to zimmerman's perception of martin, he stepped out of his boundery of duty which led to a confrontation and martin's death.

Martin also had the right to STAND YOUR GROUND" law to protect himself. He didn't know who zimm was as he never identified himself, (not in any reports that I know of), and what zimms intent was by following him and looking at him.

Shooting martin while fighting with him was only in self defense because he couldn't handle the situation any other way, but the cowardly way out and kill. He brought the confrontation on himself and therefore I don't consider it self defense.

He should have been told to unholster his weapon and take the safety off, because the police can not arrive in time. That advice might have both saved Zimmerman his injuries, and Trayvon his life.

Tyrannical,

I don't think police department hires people who just came out the insane asylum and stil being treated for schizo.

[Coito ergo sum]

Neighborhood watch volunteers are trained to be the eyes and ears for police. According to the leader of the national Neighborhood Watch organization, volunteers are not to be armed and they are not to pursue anyone. They are asked to call police if they see or hear something suspicious.

If he was told "we don't need you to do that" then that is what he should have done. Not gone any further, for any reason, not to get more accurate location or or pursue martin for any reason, and if he was a neighborhood watch volunteer chosen by "the neighborhood", then while on duty, he should not have been armed.

1. What makes you think he did go "further?" Didn't he say "ok" and then stop following Martin (based on the subsiding of the rustling noises and breathing indicating that he had been moving)? The dispatcher plainly did not mean for Zimmerman to go home or hide, since the dispatcher continued to coordinate with Zimmerman for a minute and a half to try to get the police to meet him.
2. Neighborhoods don't "choose" neighborhood watch volunteers. He just calls the coordinator with the police and does it. He need not be "chosen."
3. There is nothing illegal about Zimmerman being armed, and the police don't even say he shouldn't be armed, and they are the ones who coordinate with neighborhood watches.

There's no proof that martin was acting suspicious to the degree that he looked like a dangerous criminal, except in the eyes of zimmerman.

Zimmerman never said Martin was "dangerous," nor is "dangerous" the threshold. Zimmerman's comments imply that Zimmerman thinks he might be casing the neighborhood. He's probably more concerned with robberies than violence, since he mentions to the dispatcher that there were breakins recently.

Due to zimmerman's perception of martin, he stepped out of his boundery of duty which led to a confrontation and martin's death.

How so? What do you think he did, exactly?

Martin also had the right to STAND YOUR GROUND" law to protect himself.

He had a right of self-defense, yes. Was he attacked?

Stand your ground - can you please understand this -- just means that in a self-defense situation you do not have to "retreat" even if it might have been reasonably possible for you to do so. The reason for the SYG law is because people were being held accountable for split second self-defense decisions based on 20/20 hindsight from people who weren't in the situation.

He didn't know who zimm was as he never identified himself, (not in any reports that I know of), and what zimms intent was by following him and looking at him.

Shooting martin while fighting with him was only in self defense because he couldn't handle the situation any other way, but the cowardly way out and kill. He brought the confrontation on himself and therefore I don't consider it self defense.

How did he bring the confrontation on himself?

What do you make of Zimmerman's report to the dispatcher that while Zimmerman was sitting in his car and watching Martin from there, that Martin starting staring back at him, and then started approaching Zimmerman's truck. What was Zimmerman doing wrong there?

[Warren Dew]

How does the song go?

I was looking for trouble,
But trouble came looking for me.

Are you talking about Zimmerman, Martin, Coito, or kiki?

[kiki5711]

How does the song go?

I was looking for trouble,
But trouble came looking for me.

Are you talking about Zimmerman, Martin, Coito, or kiki?

[maiforpeace]

Neighborhood watch volunteers are trained to be the eyes and ears for police. According to the leader of the national Neighborhood Watch Organization, volunteers are not to be armed and they are not to pursue anyone. They are asked to call police if they see or hear something suspicious.

If he was told "we don't need you to do that" then that is what he should have done. Not gone any further, for any reason, not to get more accurate location or or pursue martin for any reason, and if he was a neighborhood watch volunteer chosen by "the neighborhood", then while on duty, he should not have been armed.

There's no proof that martin was acting suspicious to the degree that he looked like a dangerous criminal, except in the eyes of zimmerman.

Due to zimmerman's perception of martin, he stepped out of his boundery of duty which led to a confrontation and martin's death.

Martin also had the right to STAND YOUR GROUND" law to protect himself. He didn't know who zimm was as he never identified himself, (not in any reports that I know of), and what zimms intent was by following him and looking at him.

Shooting martin while fighting with him was only in self defense because he couldn't handle the situation any other way, but the cowardly way out and kill. He brought the confrontation on himself and therefore I don't consider it self defense.

Zimmerman had been trained and advised as a neighborhood watch NOT to carry a weapon, yet he ignored his training and carried a weapon, concealed no less. Do you think the Neighborhood Watch Organization just makes those recommendations arbitrarily? Or could there actually be a legitimate reason for it? I'm sure the kid wouldn't have come close to doing what he did if he, in fact did jump Zimmerman. He wouldn't have even considered that Zimmerman might be carrying, a concealed weapon at that, basically abusing his position as a neighborhood watch.
Given this information, I hold Zimmerman largely responsible for this tragedy.

[FBM]

There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.... After all we have been through. Just to think we can't walk down our own streets, how humiliating.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jesse_Jackson

I hesitate to blame anyone entirely for being subjected to the kind of society that inspired that quote from Jesse Jackson. People who don't live in that sort of social environment can easily look at it and place blame on individuals, but individuals don't emerge from a social vacuum. The people who actually live in FL voted to have a legal right to go armed because they are familiar with the local conditions. There are places in the US where I feel perfectly comfortable to go unarmed, and there are other places (the neighborhood where I used to work, east Knoxville, Austin East, for example) where I wouldn't even drive through without at least a handgun, day or night.

Zimmerman had his firearm legally, not criminally. If he made a mistake, it wasn't by going armed in a society where drive-by shootings, car-jackings, drug wars and so forth happen so frequently.

But neither is Martin totally to blame if he was the one who initiated the altercation. He was raised in a society that praises strength and aggression in men, and young men of his age feel a strong drive to prove their manhood, often using violence. Maybe if he'd had better role models?

This sort of thing will continue to happen as long as Hollywood and the music industry continue to propagate a culture of violence. But they'll keep doing that as long as violence sells. Whether they created the market themselves or are just capitalizing on it is an argument for another thread, I imagine.

[Tyrannical]

Sure am glad I live in a safe neighborhood. No need to lock my door or car at night. Add on a slightly over zealous police force that'll have three squad cars at the snap of a finger and I don't even bother with a handgun.

[amused]

And yet, you still live in fear.

[maiforpeace]

And yet, you still live in fear.

This is the crux of it. I can understand enjoying guns for marksmanship, but that's about it. So, why this great need to have it to protect yourself? Really, how often in a lifetime, if in a lifetime, will you be in such fear for your life that you need to pack a gun. They are deadly and dangerous, and the chances of an accident gone bad are too frequent, to me to risk my own and other people's lives. I don't care how well trained you are, one never knows how they are going to act under stress.

And, ironically, it's the big, able bodied men that are so into the guns for self protection. I have to wonder why, exactly? Maybe an attitude change would be less dangerous? I on the other hand am a small, old woman. If I am meant to die by crime, so be it.

I'm not a careless fool - I exercise the usual precautions walking along at night, that sort of thing.

Otherwise, I choose instead to walk everywhere without fear, and give people the benefit of the doubt. Sure, there are bad people out there but there are more good than bad mostly in the world I live in, I am very grateful for that. I also am multi-racial so don't stand out like a whitey, and with an open and friendly attitude I make myself at home, and feel welcome in communities of color. I don't have a need to lock the doors to my house when I am home. (My husband, however does. He also has a gun)

Life is too short to live it in fear, and to look at people with distrust instead of an open heart.

[amused]

Also, the idea that an armed society is a polite society is a totally fucked up concept.

I'm reminded of the scenes in movies where everybody pulls out a gun, points it at someone, and *nobody* pulls a trigger. That would never happen. The guns would blaze away and do damage to everybody in and around the scene. That might work in a wild west environment, but would never work in an urban environment with so many people living in close proximity. There would be shootouts every twenty feet.

[mistermack]

[kiki5711]

If he made a mistake, it wasn't by going armed in a society where drive-by shootings, car-jackings, drug wars and so forth happen so frequently.

Zimmerman did not live in that kind of neighborhood. I thought it was a well maintained middle/upper class gated community.

So why did he have a need to go wondering around at night with his gun? If you carry a gun everywhere, it means you're ready to use it whenever you feel threatened for your life. But that's kind of bordering paranoia. Someone looks at you the wrong way, bumps into you the wrong way, says something you may interpret the wrong way, confrontation happens, and off the gun goes.

I lived in New York, went through really tough neighborhoods sometimes, and quite truthfully, I never felt threatened.

The people who actually live in FL voted to have a legal right to go armed because they are familiar with the local conditions.

The south, is not a very good example of passing "sane" laws. In Georgia, it was (until last year) that it was "against the law" to give blow jobs to your partner. I don't know what that has to do with anything in real life, but it's just an example that just because people in a certain state pass a law, doesn't mean the rest of the country feels the same way or feel it makes any sense.

And there are dangerous neighborhoods in every single state.

[Tero]

This is the crux of it. I can understand enjoying guns for marksmanship, but that's about it. So, why this great need to have it to protect yourself? Really, how often in a lifetime, if in a lifetime, will you be in such fear for your life that you need to pack a gun. They are deadly and dangerous, and the chances of an accident gone bad are too frequent, to me to risk my own and other people's lives. I don't care how well trained you are, one never knows how they are going to act under stress.

And, ironically, it's the big, able bodied men that are so into the guns for self protection. I have to wonder why, exactly? Maybe an attitude change would be less dangerous? I on the other hand am a small, old woman. If I am meant to die by crime, so be it.

[/quote]
It's them able bodied men with small penises. They have to have a gun and a Humvee or pick up.

[Tyrannical]

And yet, you still live in fear.

And, ironically, it's the big, able bodied men that are so into the guns for self protection. I have to wonder why, exactly? Maybe an attitude change would be less dangerous? I on the other hand am a small, old woman. If I am meant to die by crime, so be it.

Just the thing for a small old woman. Stylish and pretty for the fashion conscious, yet small and lightweight. Have you ever seen a more adorable gun case