Leaving Fundamentalism, a blog by Jonny

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Must direct Ayaan to this thread.

[FBM]

My first thoughts, too.

[jonnyscaramanga]

Hiya, Jonny! Glad you joined up. We do have a couple of people who escaped fundamentalism in one way or another. If they don't find you and this thread first, I'll point them in this direction.

I had a few brushes with fundamentalism when I was young, but the people in those places at those times were neither smart nor organized enough to do a thorough job of it. I got rid of theism altogether while I was taking a class, The History of the Bible, in university. I was studying to go to Episcopal seminary, no less. But one evening on my way back to the dorm from that class, it dawned on me: that stuff was made up by people to control the gullible majority.


Anyway, glad to meet you.

Hi (and thanks to everyone else that said hi).

I'm not convinced by the "religion was made up to control people" argument. I think that in some cases that is true, but more often than not I think the leaders are just as enslaved by the doctrines as the followers. I think religion is an instrument of control, but that it is the idea itself that is doing the controlling. To me, that's almost worst. No one is benefiting (at least not on purpose). The religious are just the whipping boys of an unconscious meme.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Jonny, if you think of the catlicker church as a corporation, then you can easily see who benefits from the believing.

[FBM]

Hi (and thanks to everyone else that said hi).

I'm not convinced by the "religion was made up to control people" argument. I think that in some cases that is true, but more often than not I think the leaders are just as enslaved by the doctrines as the followers. I think religion is an instrument of control, but that it is the idea itself that is doing the controlling. To me, that's almost worst. No one is benefiting (at least not on purpose). The religious are just the whipping boys of an unconscious meme.

Well, that was the idea that occurred to me at the time. That was over two decades ago. Since then I've come to see it more along the lines of what you describe. At some point, though, somebody has to consciously make up some pretty wild stories, like God making everything in 7 days, Moses getting 10 commandments handwritten by God, whoziz getting turned into a pillar of salt for looking over her shoulder, miracles, resurrections, etc etc. The people who made those stories up were doing so deliberately, and I can't see much other motivation than political power and the goodies that come with it.

But you're almost certainly right in saying that most leaders are themselves true believers. I do think quite a lot of them are, indeed, motivated by goodwill. There are charlatans who are just out to make a quick buck, but I think most of them get outed sooner or later. At least, these days. I don't bash anyone for believing whatever, generally speaking, but I do bash in self-defense if they start bashing me over the head with their favorite holy book.

[Thinking Aloud]

Hi (and thanks to everyone else that said hi).

I'm not convinced by the "religion was made up to control people" argument. I think that in some cases that is true, but more often than not I think the leaders are just as enslaved by the doctrines as the followers. I think religion is an instrument of control, but that it is the idea itself that is doing the controlling. To me, that's almost worst. No one is benefiting (at least not on purpose). The religious are just the whipping boys of an unconscious meme.

Well, that was the idea that occurred to me at the time. That was over two decades ago. Since then I've come to see it more along the lines of what you describe. At some point, though, somebody has to consciously make up some pretty wild stories, like God making everything in 7 days, Moses getting 10 commandments handwritten by God, whoziz getting turned into a pillar of salt for looking over her shoulder, miracles, resurrections, etc etc. The people who made those stories up were doing so deliberately, and I can't see much other motivation than political power and the goodies that come with it.

But you're almost certainly right in saying that most leaders are themselves true believers. I do think quite a lot of them are, indeed, motivated by goodwill. There are charlatans who are just out to make a quick buck, but I think most of them get outed sooner or later. At least, these days. I don't bash anyone for believing whatever, generally speaking, but I do bash in self-defense if they start bashing me over the head with their favorite holy book.

Being the charitable chap that I am, I like to think that the 'control' side of things wasn't first and foremost in people's minds, when the earliest stories were developed. I can imagine that a lot of early dogma stems from a genuine desire to understand, and control, the world around the people living at the time - the illusion of cause and effect, for instance, in sacrificing something to the mountain fire god (Ah ha! It didn't rain fire on us after we killed the 800th goat!); or not eating shellfish (People keep dying after eating those - the sea gods don't want us to eat their food - we probably shouldn't). However I tend to think that in developing these rules and rituals, it quickly becomes apparent that people can gain control over a population by being the enforcer of the rules - a simple false cause/effect magic trick can convince the credulous that one person is closer to the gods than they are - and that's always been something that appeals to a certain kind of person.

And then it develops its own momentum. As above, the idea can carry itself forwards, and in some cases people serve the idea ahead of serving themselves (I don't think many guys join the catholic priesthood out of a desire for power) - in others they use the idea precisely to serve themselves (TV evangelists, fundamentalists of all stripes).

As a related aside, I spotted a great graphic the other day, which makes a great generalisation: "In a cult, there's someone at the top who knows it's all a scam; in a religion, that person is dead."

[FBM]

Good points, TA. Faulty logic need not be intentional. Also, I imagine pre-historic parents also made up stories to ease their childrens' fears, and those stories became part of culture, folklore, etc. Eventually, nobody was left who knew they'd been made up. But as you say, sooner or later people did figure out how to use those stories to manipulate others.

I love that last quote, btw!

[Gawdzilla Sama]

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[fretmeister]

Hello Jonny! Glad you found the place!