How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Thumpalumpacus » Thu May 17, 2012 7:47 am

I can hook you up with some cool cartoons the next time someone pulls this shit on you. That could be fun.
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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Animavore » Thu May 17, 2012 9:07 am

I don't get it
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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Rum » Thu May 17, 2012 9:42 am

Animavore wrote:I don't get it
The pic? Well as I see it the graphic is suggesting an equivalence between faith and the Bible's take on creation and one not seen through that lens as it were. It is suggesting that a non believer has as big a responsibility for explaining their view as a bible pusher and that evidence is equal to revelation.

We have actually been posting a few back and forth inspirational pics and I am tired of it. Its taken over my FB a bit.

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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Animavore » Thu May 17, 2012 9:56 am

Two major problems.

1. The evidence is on the side of those who accept the Big Bang model, evolution, geology etc...

2. Accepting the above has nothing to do with atheism. Classic creationist mistake/deliberate distortion. The graphic could easily have had another Christian holding a Bible with God's Word glasses levelling the same criticism.

The burden of proof is not symmetric. It is completely asymmetric. The creationist has mountains to climb to justify their belief.

Lastly it fails totally as comedy. If you're going to point out the ridiculousness of a position it's best to check which side of the divide between sensible and nonsensical you stand on lest your joke backfire and become a piece of irony against yourself.
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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu May 17, 2012 12:08 pm

Rum wrote:
Animavore wrote:I don't get it
The pic? Well as I see it the graphic is suggesting an equivalence between faith and the Bible's take on creation and one not seen through that lens as it were. It is suggesting that a non believer has as big a responsibility for explaining their view as a bible pusher and that evidence is equal to revelation.

We have actually been posting a few back and forth inspirational pics and I am tired of it. Its taken over my FB a bit.
It's the old "You're as bad as me" thing. Theists like to say we only look at things through the filters of science. (As if there's another sane way.) But event that spirals back to Hovind telling people to "put on your God glasses and read that."
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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu May 17, 2012 1:16 pm

Hovind and his ilk presume to use evidence to undermine the credentials of evidentialism. Their evidence of course is always self-authorised whereas actual evidence is simply a component of reason which allows us to arrive at parsimonious explanations.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Svartalf » Thu May 17, 2012 1:25 pm

Some parsley with the salad? Chives maybe?
Seriously, I don't get what you're saying... what's a self authorised thing and why would reason borne evidence lead to parsimonious conclusions?
Also, isn't parsimony, going along with Occam's razor, a positive quality when it comes to reasoning?
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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Robert_S » Thu May 17, 2012 4:03 pm

I'll discuss and debate to a point. But if the humor is as weak as that last cartoon, then it's time to pull out. Religiousity is one thing. Young earth creationism in the industrialized world is, to me, inexcusable and I won't take seriously anyone who believes it.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Rum » Thu May 17, 2012 4:06 pm

Yeah - I've had enough of it. I felt sad at de-friending him as I have known him since around 1977, but there ya go.

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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Thumpalumpacus » Thu May 17, 2012 5:15 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:It's the old "You're as bad as me" thing. Theists like to say we only look at things through the filters of science. (As if there's another sane way.) But event that spirals back to Hovind telling people to "put on your God glasses and read that."
I'm in a discussion right now on a Christian board where one of the members wrote, "Evolution is a religion too", which has cracked me up since the first time I heard it beck in the 90s. Aside from the fact that it is false -- if "religion" is that bad, why follow any religion at all, and if it isn't that bad, why badger someone that their understanding is a "religion"?
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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu May 17, 2012 5:27 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:Hovind and his ilk presume to use evidence to undermine the credentials of evidentialism. Their evidence of course is always self-authorised whereas actual evidence is simply a component of reason which allows us to arrive at parsimonious explanations.
Seriously, I don't get what you're saying... what's a self authorised thing and why would reason borne evidence lead to parsimonious conclusions?
Also, isn't parsimony, going along with Occam's razor, a positive quality when it comes to reasoning?
I would just point out that Hovind and his ilk present evidence for why they are right and reason and science is wrong, with regards to God-claims etc. They recognise they must support their assertions by some means, most notably by biblical means, but still attempt to discredit, undermine, or downgrade the evidentialism inherent in scientific reasoning. Though we might charitably gramt that Hovind is justified in believing his propositions to be true if his evidence supports them evidence from biblical texts merely confirm what he already believes - his evidence then is self-authorising, it grants him the authority to declare his beliefs true. Though it seemingly gives him an evidential basis by which he might justify his beliefs, in actuality his beliefs are not conclusions rooted in the evidence, his evidence--his self-authorised interpretation of biblical texts--is rooted in his beliefs.

As to your view of parsimony; yes.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu May 17, 2012 5:29 pm

Thumpalumpacus wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:It's the old "You're as bad as me" thing. Theists like to say we only look at things through the filters of science. (As if there's another sane way.) But event that spirals back to Hovind telling people to "put on your God glasses and read that."
I'm in a discussion right now on a Christian board where one of the members wrote, "Evolution is a religion too", which has cracked me up since the first time I heard it beck in the 90s. Aside from the fact that it is false -- if "religion" is that bad, why follow any religion at all, and if it isn't that bad, why badger someone that their understanding is a "religion"?
You could reply, "no, evolution is not a religion. Evolution has proof, so it couldn't possibly be a religion."
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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu May 17, 2012 5:39 pm

:D
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Svartalf » Thu May 17, 2012 5:49 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Thumpalumpacus wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:It's the old "You're as bad as me" thing. Theists like to say we only look at things through the filters of science. (As if there's another sane way.) But event that spirals back to Hovind telling people to "put on your God glasses and read that."
I'm in a discussion right now on a Christian board where one of the members wrote, "Evolution is a religion too", which has cracked me up since the first time I heard it beck in the 90s. Aside from the fact that it is false -- if "religion" is that bad, why follow any religion at all, and if it isn't that bad, why badger someone that their understanding is a "religion"?
You could reply, "no, evolution is not a religion. Evolution has proof, so it couldn't possibly be a religion."
What's funny is when you read XIX° and early XX° century authors to whom scientism was a religion in all but name... I point to the people who at a time believed that progress would go ever faster and we'd have flying cars, unlimited free power, and the colonisation of the solar system well on its way by 2000...
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Re: How far should our lack of respect for religion go?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu May 17, 2012 6:04 pm

...and food in pill form. That would be handy.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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