Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:12 pm

kiki5711 wrote:
What was it about martin that made zimmerman think he's acting suspicious or is up to no good or is on drugs?
Didn't he explain that to the dispatcher? We have his words at the time.
yea he did, "he's walking about, looking like he's up to no good, maybe on drugs or something, acting very suspicious"
That isn't all he said.
kiki5711 wrote:
martin was walking and talking on the phone. how in god's name does that interpret immediately to suspicion? this sounds like borderline szchicho/paranoia at the least. zimmerman never said "he's peeking in to windows, hopping from one house to another checking the houses out or such like statement. He just said he's walking and to him that looked suspicious. What was it, the hoodie cover? black guy WITH a hoodie cover walking thorough mostly white neighborhood? what was martin doing that was suspicious?

NOTHING!

It was all in zimmermans mind.
Perhaps. But, your quote left out details.


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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:16 pm

mistermack wrote:
laklak wrote:
mistermack wrote: All of that is bollocks that came out of your own head. You seem to have no idea of how politicians think or operate.
like everything else.

Svartalf told you, on page 1 of this thread, the bleeding obvious fact that this was a case of murder 2.
If you paid attention to what you're told now and then, you wouldn't keep getting it wrong.
No, you're wrong here, you do not understand the structure and political relationships between the various Florida and Federal law enforcement and prosecutorial agencies involved here. Since CES (and I, for that matter) actually live in the area perhaps if you paid attention to what you're told now and then you wouldn't keep getting it wrong.
You live there, so you know better eh? There's a fail in there somewhere, on the logic test.
The other glaring flaw in your argument is that I got it RIGHT, from my first post. I consistently said that he should have been charged straight away.
And if he had been, it would have been better for everybody, even Zimmerman.
Yet, the "straight away" part is where you fail. Just because he is charged now doesn't mean he should have been charged "straight away." The prosecutor explained this to everyone, but you don't bother worrying about what the prosecutor says....she's part of a sinister plot by the State Attorney's office to cover up the misdeeds of Sanford police. :lol:

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Tyrannical » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:17 pm

Remember, Trayvon was trespassing by cutting through people's yards. A gated community is private property and Trayvon was a guest. Trayvon had no right to break the law like that even though it was a minor offense, and Zimmerman as a property owner had every right to confront Trayvon over this.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:23 pm

HomerJay wrote:
kiki5711 wrote:
That isn't true. The special prosecutor in her presentation yesterday stated unequivocally that the local Sanford police were investigating the crime, and that it is not at all unusual for it to take weeks to make an arrest.
well that would make sense if there was a question of who needs to be arrested. zimmerman admitted he killed martin. that in itself should have been the cause for arrest and jailed possibly bonded until trial to see if he's guilty of anything or not.
That would make a nonsense of the florida syg law. Clearly for it to be self defence there must be an admission of killing but the law INDEMNIFIES the killer against arrest if it's self defence and no probable cause. There needs to be more probable cause than just a body - there's going to be a body in every case.
Correct. Kiki believes that it is cause to arrest in every case of a homicide. That is just wrong. Homicides happen all the time and there aren't arrests, because the prosecution and police determine that self defense applies, or that there wasn't an intent to kill or reckless behavior. For example, the police can determine that a death was accidental, and choose not to arrest. That is another area where a death can occur and arrest not be made.

Moreover, very often if there is an affirmative defense of alibi or self defense, then the investigation continues without an arrest until the i's are dotted and t's are crossed.

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Tyrannical » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:32 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
HomerJay wrote:
kiki5711 wrote:
That isn't true. The special prosecutor in her presentation yesterday stated unequivocally that the local Sanford police were investigating the crime, and that it is not at all unusual for it to take weeks to make an arrest.
well that would make sense if there was a question of who needs to be arrested. zimmerman admitted he killed martin. that in itself should have been the cause for arrest and jailed possibly bonded until trial to see if he's guilty of anything or not.
That would make a nonsense of the florida syg law. Clearly for it to be self defence there must be an admission of killing but the law INDEMNIFIES the killer against arrest if it's self defence and no probable cause. There needs to be more probable cause than just a body - there's going to be a body in every case.
Correct. Kiki believes that it is cause to arrest in every case of a homicide. That is just wrong. Homicides happen all the time and there aren't arrests, because the prosecution and police determine that self defense applies, or that there wasn't an intent to kill or reckless behavior. For example, the police can determine that a death was accidental, and choose not to arrest. That is another area where a death can occur and arrest not be made.

Moreover, very often if there is an affirmative defense of alibi or self defense, then the investigation continues without an arrest until the i's are dotted and t's are crossed.
And what is heavily figured into that is suspect's likely hood to flee. As an established homeowner and resident with immediate family in the area, that likelihood was low. The police's judgement was proven correct by Zimmerman turning himself in once a warrant was issued.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by MrJonno » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:00 pm

Correct. Kiki believes that it is cause to arrest in every case of a homicide. That is just wrong. Homicides happen all the time and there aren't arrests, because the prosecution and police determine that self defense applies, or that there wasn't an intent to kill or reckless behavior. For example, the police can determine that a death was accidental, and choose not to arrest. That is another area where a death can occur and arrest not be made.
Maybe in America but I'm not convinced that true anywhere else. Just about the only time there is a death and no one is at least arrested over it is suicide. Most fatal 'accidents' will be be due to neglience/drink driving or poor health and safety practice. It may not neccessary lead to a guilty verdict but the police will at least arrest someone while its investigated.

Justified homicide via self defence in the UK maybe 1 or 2 per year for a population of 60 million. Number of murder suspects that claim it as a defence close to 100%
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:12 pm

MrJonno wrote:
Correct. Kiki believes that it is cause to arrest in every case of a homicide. That is just wrong. Homicides happen all the time and there aren't arrests, because the prosecution and police determine that self defense applies, or that there wasn't an intent to kill or reckless behavior. For example, the police can determine that a death was accidental, and choose not to arrest. That is another area where a death can occur and arrest not be made.
Maybe in America but I'm not convinced that true anywhere else. Just about the only time there is a death and no one is at least arrested over it is suicide. Most fatal 'accidents' will be be due to neglience/drink driving or poor health and safety practice. It may not neccessary lead to a guilty verdict but the police will at least arrest someone while its investigated.

Justified homicide via self defence in the UK maybe 1 or 2 per year for a population of 60 million. Number of murder suspects that claim it as a defence close to 100%
Well I don't think the woman in this case -- http://kidnappingmurderandmayhem.blogsp ... fense.html or this woman http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ancer.html should be arrested, booked, jailed, and have to move for and/or post bond, and then stand trial, if the prosecutorial authorities determine that it was in self defense.

Do you?

Is this a good statement of English law on the topic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defen ... nglish_law

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by MrJonno » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:22 pm

Well I don't think the woman in this case -- http://kidnappingmurderandmayhem.blogsp ... fense.html or this woman http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ancer.html should be arrested, booked, jailed, and have to move for and/or post bond, and then stand trial, if the prosecutorial authorities determine that it was in self defense
Not sure what 'booked' is that the same as charged?, arrested and kept away from witnesses for 24 hours with access to a lawyer while being questioned seems pretty reasonable to me

The seriousness of a dead body trumps your personal civil liberties for 24 hours. I don't consider that to be an unreasonable trade off for a civil society. Being arrested is a minor but unpleasant experience being murdered is a bit more of an issue
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by kiki5711 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:34 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
kiki5711 wrote:
What was it about martin that made zimmerman think he's acting suspicious or is up to no good or is on drugs?
Didn't he explain that to the dispatcher? We have his words at the time.
yea he did, "he's walking about, looking like he's up to no good, maybe on drugs or something, acting very suspicious"
That isn't all he said.
kiki5711 wrote:
martin was walking and talking on the phone. how in god's name does that interpret immediately to suspicion? this sounds like borderline szchicho/paranoia at the least. zimmerman never said "he's peeking in to windows, hopping from one house to another checking the houses out or such like statement. He just said he's walking and to him that looked suspicious. What was it, the hoodie cover? black guy WITH a hoodie cover walking thorough mostly white neighborhood? what was martin doing that was suspicious?

NOTHING!

It was all in zimmermans mind.
Perhaps. But, your quote left out details.

the other part of the "what you call details" is after zimmerman already started pursuing martin, started scarying him and the whole cat and mouse chase began ending in martin's death.
Trayvon was cutting through people's front / backyard, exactly what you'd expect of a burglar scouting houses to rob
this is so far the most stupidist comment ever. I use to cut through the back of the complex I lived in all the time, AND ones that I didn't live in, at night, day or morning. Not to mention where trayvon was found, there is a walk-way which clearly is meant for people to walk on in between the houses. It wasn't all grass, belonging to owners back yards.

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by kiki5711 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:51 pm

Tyrannical wrote:Remember, Trayvon was trespassing by cutting through people's yards. A gated community is private property and Trayvon was a guest. Trayvon had no right to break the law like that even though it was a minor offense, and Zimmerman as a property owner had every right to confront Trayvon over this.

that's totally wrong. he wasn't traspassing if he was a guest and probably even if he wasn't a guest. AND HE WASNT CUTTING THROUGH peoples back yards. there's a walkway between the yards that is clearly meant for humans to walk through, unless you feel it's only for their pets.

I live in several gated communities and sometimes I just like to jog, or walk through them looking at houses and their yards.

does that mean I'm staking out a house to Rob?????? And therefore I can be a suspicious person, maybe on drugs, up to no good???

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Tyrannical » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:24 pm

kiki5711 wrote:
Tyrannical wrote:Remember, Trayvon was trespassing by cutting through people's yards. A gated community is private property and Trayvon was a guest. Trayvon had no right to break the law like that even though it was a minor offense, and Zimmerman as a property owner had every right to confront Trayvon over this.

that's totally wrong. he wasn't traspassing if he was a guest and probably even if he wasn't a guest. AND HE WASNT CUTTING THROUGH peoples back yards. there's a walkway between the yards that is clearly meant for humans to walk through, unless you feel it's only for their pets.

I live in several gated communities and sometimes I just like to jog, or walk through them looking at houses and their yards.

does that mean I'm staking out a house to Rob?????? And therefore I can be a suspicious person, maybe on drugs, up to no good???
Trayvon wasn't staying on the sidewalk, he was suspiciously trespassing through other people's yards. That is what made Zimmerman suspicious, and because they had a rash of burglaries in the area.
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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by kiki5711 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:38 pm

Trayvon wasn't staying on the sidewalk, he was suspiciously trespassing through other people's yards. That is what made Zimmerman suspicious, and because they had a rash of burglaries in the area.
Tyrannical
you have quite an immagination, just like zimmerman. please don't voluteer any of your time to be a neighborhood patrolman.

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by kiki5711 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:08 pm

What Are the Real Issues Now That George Zimmerman Has Been Arrested and Charged?

by Judge H. Lee Sarokin
Charges finally have been brought against George Zimmerman as I believe (and wrote) they should have been from the outset. The shooting was undisputed, and his claim of self-defense was sufficiently in dispute to warrant further proceedings. Although I have been critical of the police for failing to do so at the time, a further examination of the OK Corral-Stand Your Ground legislation might better help to understand their plight. The statute warns law enforcement officers that they may not arrest a person for using force unless they "determine that there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful." That admonition is followed by a remarkable intimidation provision that if a court finds the defendant immune, "the court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income and all expenses incurred by the defendant in any civil action brought by a plaintiff."

Bear with me on this. What does that provision mean? Following so closely on the heels of the warning to police officers, does it mean that they can be held liable in civil court, if they decide wrong? In other words, could they be held liable in damages if they had a good faith belief that probable cause existed? Or does it mean that if the Trayvon Martin family sued George Zimmerman that they could be liable to HIM, if the court found that Zimmerman had acted lawfully under the statute? Or both? The statute either deprives law enforcement of their traditional immunity if they act in good faith in pursuing charges, or it discourages wrongful death suits in this type of situation in a totally unorthodox fashion -- or both. If nothing else, this statute and others like it need a fresh look.

So putting aside this bizarre statute, what is likely to happen next is a bail hearing and a hearing on a motion to dismiss on the self-defense claim. I expect bail with appropriate surety and conditions will be granted because of Mr. Zimmerman's voluntary surrender and failure to flee since the incident. As to the stand-your-ground defense, I have written previously that Mr. Zimmerman must come forward with evidence to support that claim. That assertion met with a boatload of derisive comments that as a former judge I should know something about the presumption of innocence and the government's burden of proof. When it comes to affirmative defenses, a defendant cannot merely say "I acted in self-defense," "I have an alibi," or "I was insane at the time." Some minimum threshold of evidence must be presented in order to support the defense and require the government to rebut it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Here, the killing by George Zimmerman is conceded and admitted. To assert standard or statutory self-defense, he must offer some evidence beyond the mere assertion. The presumption of innocence and the government's burden to prove guilt and, in effect, rebut the defense beyond a reasonable doubt remains throughout. So how will that be determined here? In essence, the case will come down to a question as to what each "reasonably believed." If the proof should demonstrate that Trayvon was the first to strike Zimmerman, the question will be whether Trayvon reasonably believed that such force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself. The fact that he was being followed (or possibly chased) by a strange large man who did not identify himself will certainly be a substantial factor.

The same analysis will be necessary for Zimmerman's state of mind. Assuming that Trayvon was the attacker, did he reasonably believe that shooting Trayvon was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself? The extent of his actual injuries will be extremely relevant. Of course, he has an advantage here as the sole survivor, and his testimony on the subject must be weighed with that in mind. He has an obvious motive to lie. Of course, if the evidence reveals that Trayvon was not the aggressor and Zimmerman shot him nonetheless, the defense cannot prevail.

What I think poses the most difficult question is if both were in reasonable fear of the other. Suppose Trayvon did attack Zimmerman and was justified in doing so, because he reasonably believed that he was in danger. Then Zimmerman too, reasonably believed that he was in danger and responded by shooting Trayvon. The statute provides that justification "is not available to a person who initially provokes the use of force against himself unless the person has tried to escape or has indicated clearly to the other (in this case Trayvon) that he has no intention to use force. So the question will be whether Zimmerman was the initial aggressor and whether he ceased to be and made his intentions clear to Trayvon. There can be little doubt that Zimmerman set these events in motion, but it is obvious that the roles of aggressor and victim can change as circumstances change. Whether they did or did not here will depend on the facts as they are developed.

Thus, despite what has been reported regarding what led up to the confrontation, disposition will depend upon what actually happened at the moment of the confrontation as reasonably seen through the eyes of the two participants. Lurking in the background is the question of racial bias. It not only goes to the question of whether it should constitute a federal crime, but whether or not Mr. Zimmerman's racial views, if any, caused him to be suspicious, to follow Trayvon and ultimately decide to shoot him. The case is not easy, but it is now going to be tried in the justice system where it belongs -- not in the media
.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judge-h-l ... 21817.html

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Re: Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:06 pm

MrJonno wrote:
Well I don't think the woman in this case -- http://kidnappingmurderandmayhem.blogsp ... fense.html or this woman http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ancer.html should be arrested, booked, jailed, and have to move for and/or post bond, and then stand trial, if the prosecutorial authorities determine that it was in self defense
Not sure what 'booked' is that the same as charged?, arrested and kept away from witnesses for 24 hours with access to a lawyer while being questioned seems pretty reasonable to me

The seriousness of a dead body trumps your personal civil liberties for 24 hours. I don't consider that to be an unreasonable trade off for a civil society. Being arrested is a minor but unpleasant experience being murdered is a bit more of an issue
Look - he can't be questioned if he doesn't want to be. But, he answered all the cops' questions without a lawyer on the spot. So, he didn't, apparently, want access to a lawyer.

What benefit would keeping him in jail for 24 hours be to the investigation? It wasn't completed in 24 hours and they almost never are.

Is your suggested course of action the law in your country? If so, do you have a link or something that says that is what they do as a matter of course?

Being arrested is not minor. I assure you. I have been to, but not an inmate in, jails. It is NOT minor.

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