Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[kiki5711]

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In an interview with Orlando station WOFL FOX 35 that aired Wednesday night, Zimmerman's father, Robert Zimmerman, [u][b]said that despite dispatchers telling his son to stop following Martin[/b][/u], he kept going so he could get an address for police to check

said by his own father.

[Coito ergo sum]

This question is important because it could help prove or disprove Zimmerman’s account of his encounter with Trayvon. He says Trayvon surprised him after he had returned to his vehicle, floored him with one punch, and then beat his head on the ground, according to the police incident report. A broken nose and cuts on the back of the head would be consistent with this account.

this is from the police report.

If martin decided to run and hide and jump zimmerman, and according to zimmermans report it was at his vehicle, how did they end up in the middle of a walk through in between the houses? Were they wrestling all the way from the parking lot to the back of the house?

Please link to the report, or quote from it. I'm not certain where your information is coming from. I suspect you are not accurately reporting the police report.

[kiki5711]

At 2:10 of the audio recording, the vehicle door can be heard to open and at 2:14 it closes. By this time Martin has passed from near the clubhouse toward the area between the 13 and 28 buildings. Zimmerman begins to chase and you can hear the rustle of his clothing and his breathing at 2:19. The dispatcher ask if he is chasing Martin and Zimmerman acknowledges that he is. At 2:26 the dispatcher says:

“OK, we don’t need you to do that.”

this one is from the link you provided, I'll go look for that other link

[Coito ergo sum]

Umm, Martin's words, on the phone to his girlfriend, "why are you following me?"
And then the phone went dead, like it had been knocked from the speaking position.
Unless she invented the whole thing, shortly after the incident, I think we can take her account as true.

I don't think you can take her account as true anymore than anyone else's. She has a dog in the hunt too.

HOWEVER, I do not discount it either. It is certainly something that would point to Zimmerman following him. Although, that being said, if someone follows you through housing complex, and you turn and say "why are you following me," and then they ask you "what are you doing around here?" would that mean that one is free to strike first? Of course not. And, if Zimmerman is alleged to have knocked the phone out of Martin's hand, and started fighting, why would he do that? Why not just shoot him? Knocking phones out of someone's hand doesn't turn them off.

The allegation is that Zimmerman chased the guy and murdered him in cold blood. Why stop to argue with him about why he was in the neighborhood?

Unless she's part of some elaborate scheme to incriminate someone she didn't even know.

It doesn't have to be that. She could have been counseled by the attorney for the family. We haven't heard from the girlfriend, actually. We have heard from the family's lawyer who is telling us what he says she says.

What part of "following" is giving people trouble, I wonder?

You also have the fact that the the 911 tape has the dispatcher asking Zimmerman where he will be, and Zimmerman says this :

Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes
then?
Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine.
Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?
Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?

If Zimmerman was going to just wait for the police, he would have met them by the mail boxes.
If he was intending to follow Martin, he would want them to phone him when they arrived.
You work it out !!

Very true. However, the fact that Zimmerman was continuing to walk around and look doesn't translate into hunting Martin down and shooting him in cold blood. Those are different things altogether.

The fact remains that the dispatcher says "we don't need you to do that" and Zimmerman said "ok" and the rustling stops. He then proceeds to keep talking and meander about coordinating with the dispatcher. That's another minute and a half before the call ends. So, in a minute and a half, Martin has to traverse "a few dozen yards" -- Martin was a high school football player. Let's say he's not moving too fast -- he'd be able to do the length of a football field at a fast walk in under 30 seconds. That's over 8 dozen yards.

Where did Martin go?

[Coito ergo sum]

At 2:10 of the audio recording, the vehicle door can be heard to open and at 2:14 it closes. By this time Martin has passed from near the clubhouse toward the area between the 13 and 28 buildings. Zimmerman begins to chase and you can hear the rustle of his clothing and his breathing at 2:19. The dispatcher ask if he is chasing Martin and Zimmerman acknowledges that he is. At 2:26 the dispatcher says:

“OK, we don’t need you to do that.”

this one is from the link you provided, I'll go look for that other link

What is it that you think that shows? It certainly doesn't support any allegation you've been discussing.

That's at the early part of the call. First Zimmerman is chasing. Then the dispatcher says "we don't need you to do that." Then he says "O.k" and the rustling on the audio stops. Then he is dicking around with the dispatcher for another minute and a half. While Martin is running away.

Yes?

[kiki5711]

He called the non-emergency number first, and they asked him where he was, because he was at the rear of the town houses and there was no street sign," said Robert.

Even though a dispatcher told George Zimmerman not to follow Martin, his father said his son continued his pursuit to locate an address to give to police."He lost sight of the individual, he continued to walk down the same sidewalk to the next street, so he could get an address for the police," he said.

"He went to the next street, realized where he was and was walking to his vehicle. It's my understanding, at that point, Trayvon Martin walked up to him and asked him, 'Do you have a [expletive] problem?' George said, 'No, I don't have a problem,' and started to reach for his cell phone... at that point, he (Martin) was punching him in the nose, his nose was broken and he was knocked to the concrete."

Robert said Trayvon, "continued to beat George, and at some point, George pulled his pistol and did what he did."

When asked about the screams for help which were heard on a 911 call, Robert replied, "All of our family, everyone who knows George, knows absolutely that is George screaming. There's no doubt in anyone's mind."

As for accounts from Trayvon Martin's girlfriend, who claimed she was on the phone with Martin right before the altercation, he said, "I don't believe that happened. I don't believe she was on the phone with him, and I find it very strange with the publicity involved... that all of a sudden, after three weeks, someone would remember that they were on the phone."



Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/tr ... z1rfsQbqT7

[kiki5711]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin ... d=16011674

[kiki5711]

The Orlando Sentinel, citing anonymous sources, has reported that Martin grabbed Zimmerman's head and banged it several times against the sidewalk. A statement from Sanford police said the newspaper's story was "consistent" with evidence turned over to prosecutors.

Sonner said the gash on the back of Zimmerman's head probably was serious enough for stitches, but he waited too long for treatment so the wound was already healing. Miguel Meza, who identified himself as Zimmerman's cousin, said Zimmerman was in "the fight of his life."

His head was being bashed on the concrete and bleading and had a gash that probably needed stiches, but by the time first aid came it already healed?

[kiki5711]

Zimmerman's attorney Craig Sonner tells ABC News it will be clear in court that Zimmerman acted in self defense, and that he suffered a broken nose and an injury to the back of his head the night Trayvon Martin was killed.

March 26: George Zimmerman originally told police in a written statement that Trayvon Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source tells ABC News.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/t ... -news.html

he got all banged up according to this, but didn't need blunt trauma care because it was already healing?

[mistermack]

Firstly, nobody is claiming that Zimmerman hunted Martin down and shot him in cold blood. I haven't seen anybody write that.

I personally am claiming that this was never taken seriously, except by the original investigating officer, who recommended that Zimmerman should be charged, and doubted that Zimmerman was telling the truth.
After that, it seems to have been a very odd investigation, for the killing of a kid out buying sweets.
It frankly stinks.

In fact, even though nobody is claiming that Zimmerman hunted Martin down and killed him in cold blood, that possibility should have been taken as seriously as any other, but it does not even appear to have been investigated, or eliminated.

Zimmerman is not normal. He's not run-of-the-mill.
He's apparently the ONLY volunteer, in the local neighborhood watch. He's appointed himself Captain, and he wears a gun when he goes out.
Is this REALLY what the average american is like now?
Or has this guy got a fixation?
All the evidence points to that.

He sees a kid doing nothing wrong, but wearing a hoodie. He immediately concludes he's on drugs or looking to steal.
Fixation or what?

He says that the kid has something in his hands. WTF ?
That's what hands are for. Fixation or what??

Then the kid runs, and he runs after him, while he's talking on the phone to the dispatcher.
The kid disappears. He probably did what I would do, if someone was chasing me in the dark. Nip into a side route, and let the guy run past.

Then Zimmerman loses him, he carries on looking, at walking pace. He clearly decides to do that rather than meet the police by the mailboxes. None of this suggests someone scared for their life.

Then they find each other, fight and Zimmerman pulls his gun and shoots.

The key question is, was Zimmerman's claim of being in fear of his life true?
He's a former bouncer, providing security for illegal parties. He knows how to handle himself in a fight.
He was fighting a 140 pound skinny kid. Tall, but not powerful, compared to a grown man. He must have tangled with much stronger people in his career as a bouncer. I find his account totally incredible.

Also, he had a gun. He was obviously regularly wearing it on his "neighbourhood watch" jaunts.

Now I've never EVER carried a gun, but if I did, I would know exactly what to say, if I ever shot someone.

I would claim self-defence, and swear blind that I was in fear for my life. You don't need to be a gun carrying loonie to know that that is the essential story you have to tell.
You can bet your LIFE that Zimmerman was prepared for what to say, if he ever shot someone.

I wouldn't be at all surprised, if he was deliberately screaming his head off, knowing that he was intending to shoot.

I would do the same myself, actually.
If the screaming really was Zimmerman, I would just repeat that I've never heard a bouncer scream like that, nor any other grown man for that matter. And I can assure you I've seen far far worse fights than the one Zimmerman was in that night.

It simply doesn't tally with his lack of injuries.


Anyway, the whole point is that this was never investigated properly. None of these scenarios were ever tested.
Something stinks.

[kiki5711]

IN addition, his father in the interview says that his son was going to the store, Target. Does everyone carry a gun just going to the store to pick up a few things. He did NOT say his son was on patrol that night, he was just merely going to the store.

Furthermore:

Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend told ABC News late Monday night her final phone conversation with him before he was shot dead by neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman.

The girl, whose parents requested not to make her name public, was questioned by the Martin family’s attorney Benjamin Crump and described that her boyfriend was cornered by Zimmerman.

“He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on,” she said. “He said he lost the man. I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”

“Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for.’ And the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn’t answer the phone.”

This can be proved or disapproved through getting her cell phone records, at least the time line of the conversation and who was talking to who. Contents of the conversation cannot legally be obtained.

[kiki5711]

Since August 2011, Zimmerman has called in to a non-emergency police line seven times, according to documents released by the Sanford Police Department. Of those calls, five were made to report a “suspicious person.” In the audio released by Seminole County Sheriff’s Department, he describes the suspicious characters as black or African-American, though never mentioning race until after he was asked to describe the characters. These five calls all began similarly, with Zimmerman saying that he was calling as a result of past break-ins or robberies.

Zimmerman appears to be quite business-like in the calls, offering detailed descriptions of what he was seeing in a matter-of-fact manner. On one call he relates details of kids playing in the street, darting by passing cars.

In another call he described two “suspicious” men that he said were loitering, adding that he had “never seen them before.” Another described a black male wearing a black leather jacket and hat with ear flaps. Zimmerman said that he had seen the man picking up trash and “didn’t know what his deal was.” In this call, Zimmerman adds that, “I don’t want to approach him personally.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2 ... dio-tapes/

[FBM]

And you, CES, and everyone else who's already made up their minds based on bias rather than evidence, spinning what scant evidence there is ad nauseum. Fucking embarrassment to the last 3,000 years of intellectual development. The Englightenment may as well have never happened, if this is the best "critical thinkers" can do.

I'm thinking most of the main participants in this thread wouldn't know a logical fallacy if it fell in their lap.

How many times do I have to say that I haven't made up my mind, and what I am saying is that those who have drawn conclusions of Zimmerman's guilt have done so prematurely and without sufficient evidence, before the allegation that I have "made up my mind that he is innocent" will be withdrawn?

I have not made up my mind that he is innocent or guilty. I do not have sufficient evidence. I wasn't there.

Frankly, I've been in agreement with you on this, so I don't know where you get off telling me I've made up my mind. Have you made up your mind?

Sorry, CES. I think you mentioned this once before, but I stepped out of the discussion for a while and forgot about it. Mea culpa.

[FBM]

I love the way people are academically, technically, grudgingly and briefly admitting that they don't really know what happened that night, but fervently pushing their politically and emotionally preferred conclusions and condemnations nonetheless.

You mean pushing their own preferred conclusions like this:

From what I've read, I suspect Zimmerman is to blame.

While grudgingly admitting they don't really know like this:

But that's just a guess, too, given the paucity of details.

?

I'm thinking there are a lot of people in glass houses on this issue.

Nice cherry-picking fallacy. Thanks for helping me make my point.

[Coito ergo sum]

He called the non-emergency number first, and they asked him where he was, because he was at the rear of the town houses and there was no street sign," said Robert.

Even though a dispatcher told George Zimmerman not to follow Martin, his father said his son continued his pursuit to locate an address to give to police."He lost sight of the individual, he continued to walk down the same sidewalk to the next street, so he could get an address for the police," he said.

You make an allegation and then post a quote that totally counters your own allegation. You claim that "walking down the sidewalk to the next street, so he could get an address for the police" is "pursuit" of Martin? Really? How is "walking" down the sidewalk for the purpose of getting to a house with a number on it to give it to the police "pursuing" Martin?

His father, per your quote, said "he lost sight of the individual" -- and that is consistent with the 911 call when Zimmerman says that Martin "ran off." So, Zimmerman says "ok" to the request that he not pursue, and he continues to walk down the sidewalk to the next street so he can get an address. So what? He's not allowed to walk down the street to get an address?

"He went to the next street, realized where he was and was walking to his vehicle. It's my understanding, at that point, Trayvon Martin walked up to him and asked him, 'Do you have a [expletive] problem?' George said, 'No, I don't have a problem,' and started to reach for his cell phone... at that point, he (Martin) was punching him in the nose, his nose was broken and he was knocked to the concrete."

That all sounds totally consistent with the 911 call, and Zimmerman's story.

Robert said Trayvon, "continued to beat George, and at some point, George pulled his pistol and did what he did."

When asked about the screams for help which were heard on a 911 call, Robert replied, "All of our family, everyone who knows George, knows absolutely that is George screaming. There's no doubt in anyone's mind."

As for accounts from Trayvon Martin's girlfriend, who claimed she was on the phone with Martin right before the altercation, he said, "I don't believe that happened. I don't believe she was on the phone with him, and I find it very strange with the publicity involved... that all of a sudden, after three weeks, someone would remember that they were on the phone."

Also consistent with Zimmerman's story. And, if the girlfriend did remember, weeks later, that she was on the phone with him, that would certainly cast doubt on her statement, wouldn't it? I mean - any normal person would tell the cops right away.