Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[FBM]

But that doesn't answer my question about Dr. Friedman...What makes him a relevant authority instead of just another Monday morning quarterback, like the rest of us?

[Coito ergo sum]

Enhanced surveillance images of George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain who admitted shooting 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, appear to show a bump, mark or injury on the back of his head

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162- ... olice-say/

"Once again, George Zimmerman was the aggressor. He pursued Trayvon in this instance. If he did have any medical injuries, that did not give him the right to use deadly force and shoot and kill Trayvon."

I'm still not convinced about the head injury. Forensic Protection.com is a private company and there's been so much involved in this case that it wouldn't be improbable that they were paid to make the enhancement look that way.

I'd like to see an independent inhancement of the video by a different company.

And, of course, you quote without attribution:

Jasmine Rand, a Martin family attorney, said Tuesday that it doesn't matter what the videotape shows.

Jasmine Rand, the Martin family attorney, is the one who ARGUES that, once again, Zimmerman was the aggressor and it doesn't matter what the videotape shows.

The 911 audiotape does not show Zimmerman as the aggressor, does it? Only argument of Martin family counsel, Al Sharpton, etc., CLAIM Zimmerman was the aggressor.

[Seth]

That actually looks pretty painful. Where does it come from?

ABC News via The Blaze,

[Seth]

You dimwit, I'm not trying to make it into racial war. I'm commenting on what I heard and reports I read.

Now I'm a dimwit?

Maybe you ought to look at the primary evidence, rather than some agenda-driven secondary source?

You ARE trying to make it a racial thing, because you keep bringing race into it, and you make specific reference to going out and shooting blacks and hispanics. If it's not racial, then why are you putting it in racist terms?

Only because racist crimes by cops done in this country are too many to disregard it. It's a FACT that blacks and hispanics get targeted more often than whites and treated harsher.

This particular statement has a good deal of truth to it, although it's a regional thing. However, while a racist police department might show prejudice towards a black suspect and a black suspect might get a harsher sentence from a racist jury, the idea that the police would go to the trouble, not to mention place their careers in jeopardy to "help out" a suspect in a shooting by beating him up or otherwise tampering with evidence is an asinine assertion right out of some bad 1960's blacksploitation movie.

The police have absolutely no rational motivation to commit felonies by tampering with evidence in this case. One could assert that they might have failed to properly gather evidence, but there is no credible evidence that the police did not do so, and as we see from the enhanced video, there's substantial reason to believe they did.

But Kiki, you are wrong, just as Al Sharpton is wrong, in fanning the flames of racial hatred and divisiveness in this case, before the case has been carefully reviewed and adjudicated.

When you're told you're ugly enough times, sooner or later you'll start acting like it.[/quote]

[Twoflower]

Kiki, these posts http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 6#p1153696 http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 3#p1153713 contain personal attacks on another RatZ member. This is a reminder to please post within our rules http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=3449.

[Warren Dew]

I'm not saying that I would like to live in an all black neighborhood because I have a bleeding heart, and I get super annoyed with the hispanics playing their annoying music super loud, and every hispanic family has at least 2 five year olds at any time in their house, or having two to three families living together, and having they use the emergency room as their family doctor, for which I the tax payer, have to foot the bill, while they keep all their tax free cash.

Wow, some serious racism against hispanics there. So why is it you wouldn't like to live in an all black neighborhood again? They're full of hispanics?

Well Warren, I said it so you wouldn't have to.

I don't get annoyed with hispanics, and I have no problem with several families living together, nor with their having lots of children if they can afford them. And in my state, emergency room use by the uninsured is paid for by the insurance companies, not through taxes.

So no, I wouldn't have said it; it's just you who seems to be "annoyed with the hispanics" that way.

[Warren Dew]

NBC producer who edited the tape of Zimmerman's call to make him sound racist has been fired:

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.d ... 26/-1/NEWS

Here's another 911 tape with the screams in the background.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... layer=true

[maiforpeace]

Witness, Zimmerman attorneys address key questions in Trayvon shooting

By the CNN Wire Staff
April 7, 2012 -- Updated 0507 GMT (1307 HKT)

A witness speaks to CNN for a second time, offering new details of the shooting
She says she is certain it was a younger voice yelling for help
Members of Zimmerman's legal team question the witness' recollection

(CNN) -- As outrage over the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin continues to grip the nation, key questions remain unanswered over what happened the night of February 26 as conflicting accounts are given by witnesses and attorneys for both sides.

What is known is that Martin, wearing a hoodie, ventured out from his father's fiancee's home in Sanford, Florida, to get a snack at a nearby convenience store. As he trekked back to the home with a bag of Skittles and an Arizona iced tea, he was shot and killed by George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer. Martin was unarmed. Zimmerman has said he acted in self-defense.

CNN spoke to a witness to the shooting for a second time Friday, who offered new details about what she saw. Zimmerman's attorneys, for their part, were quick to knock down her statements.

Here's what they said:

Who yelled for help?

A recording of a 911 call made the night of the shooting captured someone pleading for help. Zimmerman has said he was yelling for help, according to his family members and his account to authorities. Martin's relatives have said they are certain the voice heard on the 911 call is Martin's.

"From the very beginning and I still do feel that it was the young boy," the witness, who wants to remain anonymous, told CNN Friday.

The witness lives in the apartment complex where the shooting occurred and saw the incident through her window.

She described the cries for help as "devastating, desperate," and something "that will really always stay with me."

When pressed if she could determine who was yelling, the witness said "it was the younger, youthful voice (rather) than it was the deep voice I heard when they were arguing."

Zimmerman's attorneys jumped on the witness' characterization of Martin as "the young boy."

"I'm not sure when she came to that conclusion," said attorney Hal Uhrig, noting that when news of the shooting first broke, pictures of Martin as a 12-year-old were the first to circulate.

"The pictures you've put up tonight show a 6 foot 3 boy who was 17 years old," Uhrig said, pointing out that teenage boys can have voices that range from high to as low as a grown man.

Audio experts Tom Owen and Ed Primeau, who analyzed the 911 recordings for the Orlando Sentinel, said they don't believe it is Zimmerman who is heard yelling in the background of one 911 call. They compared those screams with Zimmerman's voice, as recorded in a 911 call he made minutes earlier describing a "suspicious" black male, who ended up being Martin.

In describing her questioning by investigators, the witness remembered expressing that she should have done something more, in retrospect, after hearing the cries for help.

"The lead investigator said to me kindly, 'Well, if it makes you feel any better, the person that was yelling for help is alive,'" she recalled.

Who was on top of whom during the scuffle?

Zimmerman says he killed Martin in self-defense after the teen punched him and slammed his head on the sidewalk, according to an Orlando Sentinel report that was later confirmed by Sanford police. One of the responding officers saw a wound on the back of Zimmerman's head and a bloody nose, and noted that his back was wet, indicating he had been lying in the grass, according to the police report.

Martin's family and supporters say Zimmerman, who is Hispanic, racially profiled the teen, who was black, and ignored a police dispatcher's directive not to follow him.

"I know it was very dark, but I really would have to say that I thought it was the larger person on top," the witness said, referring to the heavier build of Zimmerman.

Craig Sonner, another Zimmerman attorney, questioned how the witness could determine the identities of those on the ground at that time of night and from her vantage point.

"I think it was dark, and I don't think she's sure what she saw," Sonner said.

The police investigation:

The Sanford police department has come under intense scrutiny for its actions following the shooting, and protesters have called for the firing of police Chief Bill Lee, who stepped aside temporarily last month amid criticism.

The witness declined to characterize her questioning by investigators as "in depth," instead saying "I just kind of told what I saw and heard."

She noted that when she offered to show the investigators where she saw the scuffle occur, she was told, "Nah, we don't need to see it."

She added that two phone calls to the lead detective have gone unanswered.

Her attorney, Derek Brett, said a follow-up visit on behalf of the state attorney's investigation on Wednesday yielded only 15 minutes of questioning.

"It was very general," Brett said, adding that had he been in the investigators' position, he would have had her recount her story again.

The state attorney's office declined to comment Friday, citing the ongoing investigation.

Sanford police did not respond to requests for comment Friday.

What will happen next?

A grand jury is expected to convene next week and could take up the case. Whether a grand jury will choose to indict, Sonner said: "we don't know."

Until now, only friends and relatives of Zimmerman's have come forward to offer his side of the story. Uhrig said Zimmerman "would love to be able to do that right now," but due to threats to his safety and the possibility of charges, he can't.

"There's going to be a time, hopefully in the fairly near future, where he'll have an opportunity to tell the public exactly what happened," Uhrig said.

Until then, Sonner cautions against jumping to conclusions.

"Everybody wants to know what happened, but we need to take a step back and let the evidence come out," he said.

[Tyrannical]

I wonder what "journalist" first pushed this story to national attention?

Let's count all the face palms so far

Zimmerman was white, turns out Mestizo
Zimmerman said "coon", turns out to be "cold"
Zimmerman was uninjured in police tape, turns out he had a prominent head wound
Zimmerman was a racist that hated blacks, turns out he mentored some black children and helped raise money for a black church
L'ill Trayvon was screaming for help, turns out it was Zimmerman
L'ill Trayvon shown in a four year old picture, turns out he' 6'3 and on the football team
L'ill Trayvon was a good kid, then his suspensions, facebook page, and twitter account reveal him as no_limit_nigga

[kiki5711]

I wonder what "journalist" first pushed this story to national attention?

Let's count all the face palms so far

Zimmerman was white, turns out Mestizo
Zimmerman said "coon", turns out to be "cold"
Zimmerman was uninjured in police tape, turns out he had a prominent head wound
Zimmerman was a racist that hated blacks, turns out he mentored some black children and helped raise money for a black church
L'ill Trayvon was screaming for help, turns out it was Zimmerman
L'ill Trayvon shown in a four year old picture, turns out he' 6'3 and on the football team
L'ill Trayvon was a good kid, then his suspensions, facebook page, and twitter account reveal him as no_limit_nigga

This is all just a "re hash" of "someone said somehting and got something on tape." In other words "bullshit".

The enhanced tape of zimmerman's head was done by private company, not CSI Miami Forensic Team, as some of you might think and will not be submittable in court. And if it's tried to, there will be an investigation by the state forensic team or FBI forensic team have to do their own investigation with regard to the tape and we'll see then. MSNBC was already under fire for picking and choosing what they wanted to report, and getting in deep fire for it. So, to think they're beyond making mistakes just because they're a widely acceptable network, don't wash.

The witness who said that it DID sound like the younger Travon's voice will try to be discredited in any way shape or form to the fact that she's wrong.

And yea, I think that sooner or later it will come to a grand jury and they'll have to decide. We'll see what "true" evidence comes from that point on.

Seth: The police have absolutely no rational motivation to commit felonies by tampering with evidence in this case. One could assert that they might have failed to properly gather evidence, but there is no credible evidence that the police did not do so, and as we see from the enhanced video, there's substantial reason to believe they did.

They have plenty motivation to cover up for the sole reason that they might get in trouble for not handling the case properly from the start and trying to just "make it go away". As stated by them, that it was within the law, how zimmerman acted and justified his killing of martin. This wouldn't be the first time or the last that cops do cover ups to save their jobs and reputation. It happens in many, many cases all over the country. Just because they're the police, doesn't mean they're all "good police".

Well it could have been a white boy too, with a hoodie. I would feel the same rage, and same revenge. Zimmerman just had no business having a gun patrolling the neighborhood without proper training. This is huge negligence allowed by the police and neighborhood committee to go on without taking proper responsibility and caution.

"Everybody wants to know what happened, but we need to take a step back and let the evidence come out," he said.

This is what I'm waiting for.

Also, once the REAL state or FBI forensic determine at how close a range the gun was shot, it will give a little more light on the story. And if martin was on top of zimmerman fighting as stated, and as said his jacket appeared to be all wet, in the video, his jacket does not look wet, nor does it have any kind of stain of grass or dirt on it especially since it was drizzling that night, his jacket must have had some smudge or sign of struggling on the grass.

[kiki5711]

Also if you listen carefully again to the tape conversation zimmerman had with the dispatcher, he says at one point "he' coming towards me, he's checking me out..." then he says "now he's running away". THat's when dispatcher tells him not to follow him. OBVIOUSLY zimmerman STILL followed him

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sicgv2zC ... re=related[/youtube]

[Warren Dew]

Mai, the CNN piece seems slanted, or at least incomplete.

In particular, if you look at detailed reports on the audio experts, what they said was that there was "only a 48% chance" that it was Zimmerman. They also decline to say what the chances were that it was Martin, because they have no voice samples from Martin to compare to, and note that it was hard to find a match because of the low quality of the recordings.

It might end up being a "48% chance" that it was Zimmerman, a "2% chance" that it was Martin, and a 50% chance they couldn't identify it. What the data really seem to say is that the odds are, roughly, at least even that it was Zimmerman, and possibly much better.

[Warren Dew]

L'ill Trayvon was a good kid, then his suspensions, facebook page, and twitter account reveal him as no_limit_nigga

I believe that particular picture was later shown to be from a different person also named Trayvon Martin. The rest of your points are valid, though.

[kiki5711]

Mai, the CNN piece seems slanted, or at least incomplete.



In particular, if you look at detailed reports on the audio experts, what they said was that there was "only a 48% chance" that it was Zimmerman. They also decline to say what the chances were that it was Martin, because they have no voice samples from Martin to compare to, and note that it was hard to find a match because of the low quality of the recordings.

It might end up being a "48% chance" that it was Zimmerman, a "2% chance" that it was Martin, and a 50% chance they couldn't identify it. What the data really seem to say is that the odds are, roughly, at least even that it was Zimmerman, and possibly much better.

Again, these "so called audio/video experts" are private companies and they could be biased, we don't know. Until the tape, voices and all other evidence is examined by professional FBI forensic, it's all just speculation.

If this was your life on the line, wouldn't you want your lawyer to have FBI official forensics rather than some private company NOT hired by your lawyer or anyone you know?

[Coito ergo sum]

Also if you listen carefully again to the tape conversation zimmerman had with the dispatcher, he says at one point "he' coming towards me, he's checking me out..." then he says "now he's running away". THat's when dispatcher tells him not to follow him. OBVIOUSLY zimmerman STILL followed him

Actually, not. I've posted the text of the 911 audio above, and if you follow it, Zimmerman obeyed the 911 operator and lost sight of Martin. He was coordinating with the dispatcher where to meet the police cruiser which was en route.