Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[amok]

I'm really having a hard time understanding some of the points being made in this thread (never mind the reality of actual event).

OK. I'm living in a different place with different laws, BUT... if I went on a visit to Florida, which does have freer gun laws and ALSO has that stand-your-ground law, and was walking home from a store one night in a "gated" community, how would this play out?

I'm walking and someone starts following me (uncontested). If I honestly think he/she means me harm, am I not allowed to "stand my ground" and fight them with whatever self-defence means I have at hand (and if I only have a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea, that would be hitting and punching and scratching, etc.)?

I've seen quite a few posts (in other gun threads, on various boards) by American people who have mocked those of us in "gun control" countries as being meek sheep for the slaughter, but I know that under certain circumstances (being confronted in the night by a stranger, for example), I'd be defending myself by whatever means necessary.

And for heaven's sake, this "size" discussion! I'm a middle-aged woman who's five-foot-five and about 125-130 pounds, and I don't consider myself either big or small - just average. The dead boy was six-foot-two (three?) and 140 pounds? I do understand that a male teenager would be have the benefit of youthful strength and agility and whatnot, but that's still a tall, slender (even skinny) person by any reasonable standard, no?

[mistermack]

The same people who have been describing him as a 6ft3 in football player, have also been ignoring the fact that Zimmerman is an ex bouncer who has a violent record. Zimmerman must have been in plenty of fights. You don't work in the security business, especially for illegal parties, without having to get involved, and being able to handle violence. That's what you're there for.

His story of being in fear of his life is bollocks.

[Santa_Claus]

The rumour I heard is that the black fella was killed by a sniper firing from a grassy knoll - and he was called Seth.

[kiki5711]

Well I guess I was too high on mescaline or purple haze to pay attention.

I somehow thought acid rock was that super loud screeetchiiing where you can't understand one word they say.

I have a hard time hearing the words to most rock music.

I can't understand Sting half the time.

I don't always need to understand the words to like the music. It's hard for me to understand Metallica's words, AC/DC, and G&R, or Nirvana, or Rage Against the Machine or Nine Inch Nails, but they make good music.

I like punk rock music, but punk has been dead for a long time. Green Day has some good songs, but they're not really punk. They're imitators, IMO. For punk, one needs to look to the Ramones and The Misfits, then Black Flag, The Stooges, Dropkick Murphys, etc. The Ramones are the kings of punk, however. IMO. The British punk bands pretty much took their lead from The Ramones.

Fuck you I won't do what'cha' tell me, Fuck you I won't do what'cha' tell me, Fuck you I won't do what'cha' tell me, Fuck you I won't do what'cha' tell me, ......repeat.........motherFUCKER.....Aaahhhhhhh!


Breaking Benjamin.

HOnestly, those of you of the hippie generation, did you really hear about acid rock back then, and hard rock, and soul rock, and punk rock??

I think the different adjectives to "rock" came later on. Or was I really that spaced out not to have noticed?

[amused]

Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle, armed, with intent to create an unnecessary confrontation. Zimmerman is the perfect example of why both the 'stand your ground' and concealed carry laws are bad ideas. All three came together to create the perfect storm for murder.

[FBM]

Can you claim that this as certain knowledge, amused, or is there some speculation involved? If you are right in your claim, does this exclude the possibility that Martin could also have had malicious intent? One possibility that seems almost completely absent from these discussions is the possibility that both of them were in the wrong frame of mind, made mistakes, poor choices, bad moves, and only one survived. Had Martin survived, would he be equally villified by the court of public opinion? Or would it have been a back-page "also happened today" story?

[Tyrannical]

The one interesting thing I've yet to see is video tape of Trayvon playing HS Football.


One of the key questions still in some people mind's is if tall skinny ~140lb Trayvon was physically capable of over powering Zimmerman.

So, lets see how hard he can hit, take a hit, and tackle in football. I bet most games are filmed at least by parents so there should be plenty of tape of Trayvon.

[Coito ergo sum]

Well I guess I was too high on mescaline or purple haze to pay attention.

I somehow thought acid rock was that super loud screeetchiiing where you can't understand one word they say.

I have a hard time hearing the words to most rock music.

I can't understand Sting half the time.

I don't always need to understand the words to like the music. It's hard for me to understand Metallica's words, AC/DC, and G&R, or Nirvana, or Rage Against the Machine or Nine Inch Nails, but they make good music.

I like punk rock music, but punk has been dead for a long time. Green Day has some good songs, but they're not really punk. They're imitators, IMO. For punk, one needs to look to the Ramones and The Misfits, then Black Flag, The Stooges, Dropkick Murphys, etc. The Ramones are the kings of punk, however. IMO. The British punk bands pretty much took their lead from The Ramones.

Fuck you I won't do what'cha' tell me, Fuck you I won't do what'cha' tell me, Fuck you I won't do what'cha' tell me, Fuck you I won't do what'cha' tell me, ......repeat.........motherFUCKER.....Aaahhhhhhh!


Breaking Benjamin.

HOnestly, those of you of the hippie generation, did you really hear about acid rock back then, and hard rock, and soul rock, and punk rock??

I think the different adjectives to "rock" came later on. Or was I really that spaced out not to have noticed?

Acid rock was a common reference because of the "Acid Test" and the Merry Pranksters. Acid rock was associated with the LSD craze of the 1960's. I already posted an image from a 1968 magazine article that used the term. Obviously, it was being used in 1968.

Punk rock and heavy metal were terms used as far back as the 1970's.

[kiki5711]

Can you claim that this as certain knowledge, amused, or is there some speculation involved? If you are right in your claim, does this exclude the possibility that Martin could also have had malicious intent? One possibility that seems almost completely absent from these discussions is the possibility that both of them were in the wrong frame of mind, made mistakes, poor choices, bad moves, and only one survived. Had Martin survived, would he be equally villified by the court of public opinion? Or would it have been a back-page "also happened today" story?

If Martin had somehow gotten the gun from Zimmerman and shot HIM, the news would have been "black teen thug kills neighborhood watchman during a burglary attempt" and he'd be already in jail serving lifetime sentence.

[tattuchu]

I'm really having a hard time understanding some of the points being made in this thread (never mind the reality of actual event).

OK. I'm living in a different place with different laws, BUT... if I went on a visit to Florida, which does have freer gun laws and ALSO has that stand-your-ground law, and was walking home from a store one night in a "gated" community, how would this play out?

I'm walking and someone starts following me (uncontested). If I honestly think he/she means me harm, am I not allowed to "stand my ground" and fight them with whatever self-defence means I have at hand (and if I only have a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea, that would be hitting and punching and scratching, etc.)?

I've seen quite a few posts (in other gun threads, on various boards) by American people who have mocked those of us in "gun control" countries as being meek sheep for the slaughter, but I know that under certain circumstances (being confronted in the night by a stranger, for example), I'd be defending myself by whatever means necessary.

And for heaven's sake, this "size" discussion! I'm a middle-aged woman who's five-foot-five and about 125-130 pounds, and I don't consider myself either big or small - just average. The dead boy was six-foot-two (three?) and 140 pounds? I do understand that a male teenager would be have the benefit of youthful strength and agility and whatnot, but that's still a tall, slender (even skinny) person by any reasonable standard, no?

If indeed Zimmerman was attacked as he claims, it's a shame he didn't defend himself (if that's what happened) in a non-lethal manner. Instead of a gun, for instance, could not mace have done the trick? Gun lovers seem to ignore the fact that there are other ways to defend oneself, other ways which do not leave your opponent dead.

[FBM]

Can you claim that this as certain knowledge, amused, or is there some speculation involved? If you are right in your claim, does this exclude the possibility that Martin could also have had malicious intent? One possibility that seems almost completely absent from these discussions is the possibility that both of them were in the wrong frame of mind, made mistakes, poor choices, bad moves, and only one survived. Had Martin survived, would he be equally villified by the court of public opinion? Or would it have been a back-page "also happened today" story?

If Martin had somehow gotten the gun from Zimmerman and shot HIM, the news would have been "black teen thug kills neighborhood watchman during a burglary attempt" and he'd be already in jail serving lifetime sentence.

But it wouldn't be a highly polarized, nationwide story, much less the international one that it has become, would it? I don't see 'black person kills innocent Hispanic person' as a headline story very often, but I'm pretty sure it happens more often than it hits the headlines. If it's particularly gory, maybe 2nd-page, but I doubt most of them get published outside of the local media at all.

My point is that the public as a whole immediately assumes only one person is in the wrong and the other must be an innocent victim. This is a false dilemma. Maybe it's fed by Hollywood movies or maybe the human mind prefers simple, easy-to-judge, black-or-white, yes-or-no, good-or-evil outcomes because it's too hard to figure out the complicated cases. And, perhaps, therefore, they take the complex stories and over-simplify them into a simple black-or-white story out of convenience, read: intellectual laziness and disregard for truth and justice. There is no logical reason to assume that only one of the two people involved was in the wrong or made mistakes. That's my point, and one that has been overwhelmingly ignored here and by the public at large, as far as I can tell.

So, to simplify things, let me ask a simple question: What precludes the possibility that both Martin and Zimmerman misbehaved on the night in question?

[Coito ergo sum]

I doubt it, kiki. The news has not been on the side of Zimmerman at all on this issue. NBC doctored the audio of the 911 call to make him seem racist. So, you think if Martin survived, they'd be glorifying the gun-toting, neighborhood watch "captain?" That seems incongruous. If the news would have reported your scenario as you described, why did they not report this scenario, "Brave neighborhood watchman defends neighborhood from burgling youth?"

[mistermack]

The disturbing thing about this is that the people now running the belated "investigation" are the same people who have a vested interest in Zimmerman not being charged, and certainly not convicted.

A conviction would make the state, and the local police, look completely incompetent. And even charges brought would make them look bad. So what would a police department do?

Firstly, the police chief who has most to hide stepped down temporarily. He's apparently not resigned, he's just taking temporary leave. The State attorney who made the original decision has been replaced in the case. All very proper. BUT :

The signs are that they are going to bury it. The state attorney now says that no grand jury will decide on charges. It will be her office that has the final say. If this fuss dies down enough, she won't charge him.

But if she HAS to charge him, the chances are they will present a thoroughly weak prosecution case, which will get thrown out. That's the standard procedure for getting the police off the hook, and it's virtually never questioned, and impossible to prove.

So even though Zimmerman wouldn't stand a chance in a proper trial, the chances are he either won't stand trial, or will get acquitted super quick.

[kiki5711]

But it wouldn't be a highly polarized, nationwide story, much less the international one that it has become, would it? I don't see 'black person kills innocent Hispanic person' as a headline story very often, but I'm pretty sure it happens more often than it hits the headlines. If it's particularly gory, maybe 2nd-page, but I doubt most of them get published outside of the local media at all.

You're right, because Martin's ass would be in jail before you can sneeze, done, executed.

[FBM]

But it wouldn't be a highly polarized, nationwide story, much less the international one that it has become, would it? I don't see 'black person kills innocent Hispanic person' as a headline story very often, but I'm pretty sure it happens more often than it hits the headlines. If it's particularly gory, maybe 2nd-page, but I doubt most of them get published outside of the local media at all.

You're right, because Martin's ass would be in jail before you can sneeze, done, executed.

If there were sufficient evidence at the scene, yes, as it should be. Failing that, the police would have to let him go until sufficient evidence justified an arrest. Doing otherwise would set them up for false imprisonment charges.

But back to my real question: What precludes the possibility that both Martin and Zimmerman misbehaved on the night in question?