Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[Warren Dew]

It's a shame that American Blacks can't use the Trayvon killing as a reason to self-reflect on their behavior and why they are perceived as a threat.

How do you know they aren't?

According to reports I've read, Trayvon Martin was apparently moved from one of the worst inner city schools, with a 50% graduation rate, to a better school with an 80% graduation rate, because his mother saw some of the inner city cultural problems and did the best she could to get him out of there. And when he got suspended, she sent him to live in a more middle class, mixed race, neighborhood, where he might develop some better habits. It actually sounds to me like she was taking your advice.

However, it is possible that this worked to his detriment in the new situation. Maybe in his original neighborhood, someone of a different race following you was a sign that a gang was watching you, and the appropriate response would be to beat up the guy following you so they'd learn to respect you. And maybe this case is an example of how that acculturation backfired on Martin in an actual middle class neighborhood.

If that's true, maybe if he hadn't been followed, he would have had the time to change his acculturation and gain more constructive middle class habits. You can hardly expect blacks to reject the destructive aspects of inner city black culture if the result is that they get killed.

Your advice may be good advice, but nonblacks need to help out by facilitating the transition you suggest by treating people of all races with respect. If you're going to make a judgement, make it based on the individual, not based on the individual's race.

[Ronja]

Good points well made, Warren.

[FBM]

...

Whether Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin is going to turn on very, very small details in the evidence. Hopefully the proper evidence was collected and the triers of fact (the jury) will review all the evidence carefully and come to a reasonable and just conclusion about what exactly happened that day.

...

I prefer to presume innocence, collect evidence, analyze it, present it to the DA and then to the jury and let the man's peers decide if he was justified in killing Martin. I'm confident that justice will be done in this case if the baying hounds of black racism that seem to assume that no black 17 year old has ever used violence against anyone else can be held at bay so they don't poison the jury pool.

Now, it may be that Zimmerman committed cold-blooded murder, and if so he'll get what he deserves. But fanning the flames of racial hatred by assuming that Zimmerman is automatically guilty because he used deadly force, and that Martin is automatically innocent because he got shot dead, is the game of racists, bigots and hatemongers and I prefer not to play that game.

I'll wait for the jury to decide, and I suggest you do so too.

That being said, the thing that does need to happen is that the police department needs to be carefully investigated to make sure that in cases where someone is murdered or assaulted, it matters not what color the victims or the suspects are and that the police do their job without bias or favoritism and strictly according to the law.

Whatever Zimmerman and Martin did, if the police department screwed up the investigation, heads should roll.

[Svartalf]

Uh oh, now I'm confused too. We have a black guy who is an attorney in our skate club. Were we supposed to shun him instead of welcoming him? Can't laugh at his (really smart) jokes? His lovely spouse is part black part hispanic, so you know, sorta dark too, but really beautiful and sharp as a tack. Shun?

The guy is a fracking lawyer, of course you ought to have tarred and feathered him regardless of color.

[FBM]

Uh oh, now I'm confused too. We have a black guy who is an attorney in our skate club. Were we supposed to shun him instead of welcoming him? Can't laugh at his (really smart) jokes? His lovely spouse is part black part hispanic, so you know, sorta dark too, but really beautiful and sharp as a tack. Shun?

The guy is a fracking lawyer, of course you ought to have tarred and feathered him regardless of color.

[amused]

The common areas of a gated community are not private property, they are semi-public.

[Seth]

The common areas of a gated community are not private property, they are semi-public.

Depends entirely on the particular community and it's rules. If it's a gated community, this implies that the grounds are for the use of residents and authorized guests only, not for use by the general public. And yes, common areas are open to all residents and their guests as a rule. But that doesn't mean that someone who is a resident is not authorized to question individuals found on the property who are unfamiliar and may be unauthorized trespassers.

[tattuchu]

I read in a news article yesterday that Zimmerman mentioned Martin was black only after specifically being asked by the 911 operator. Zimmerman also has black friends, one of whom is making the rounds defending his buddy. I also read that Zimmerman and his wife mentor and tutor at-risk black kids. This last bit is just something a commenter commented, so I can't attest to the veracity of it.

[Seth]

I read in a news article yesterday that Zimmerman mentioned Martin was black only after specifically being asked by the 911 operator. Zimmerman also has black friends, one of whom is making the rounds defending his buddy. I also read that Zimmerman and his wife mentor and tutor at-risk black kids. This last bit is just something a commenter commented, so I can't attest to the veracity of it.

NBC has launched an investigationinto the editing of the tape by its news department, which appears to have elided the dispatcher's asking him what the suspect's race was:

NBC has revealed that it is launching an internal investigation into the “editing process” surrounding the conversation between George Zimmerman and a police dispatcher (shortly before Trayvon Martin was shot), where Zimmerman appears to volunteer racial information.

Exposed by Fox News and Newsbusters, NBC played the conversation on the “Today Show” as: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.”

The unabridged version is:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black.

[Coito ergo sum]

...duplicate -- edited below.

[Tyrannical]

It's a shame that American Blacks can't use the Trayvon killing as a reason to self-reflect on their behavior and why they are perceived as a threat.

How do you know they aren't?

According to reports I've read, Trayvon Martin was apparently moved from one of the worst inner city schools, with a 50% graduation rate, to a better school with an 80% graduation rate, because his mother saw some of the inner city cultural problems and did the best she could to get him out of there. And when he got suspended, she sent him to live in a more middle class, mixed race, neighborhood, where he might develop some better habits. It actually sounds to me like she was taking your advice.

However, it is possible that this worked to his detriment in the new situation. Maybe in his original neighborhood, someone of a different race following you was a sign that a gang was watching you, and the appropriate response would be to beat up the guy following you so they'd learn to respect you. And maybe this case is an example of how that acculturation backfired on Martin in an actual middle class neighborhood.

If that's true, maybe if he hadn't been followed, he would have had the time to change his acculturation and gain more constructive middle class habits. You can hardly expect blacks to reject the destructive aspects of inner city black culture if the result is that they get killed.

Your advice may be good advice, but nonblacks need to help out by facilitating the transition you suggest by treating people of all races with respect. If you're going to make a judgement, make it based on the individual, not based on the individual's race.

But the problem is not an individual problem. It is a problem of averages and statistics across an entire population group. Prejudice, or pre-judging allows us to intelligently asses past experiences and other evidence to make statistically significant predictions of future behavior. Prejudice is just a default behavior when not enough evidence is available, once an individual's merits are ascertained prejudice does not prevent you from treating that individual fairly according to their merits.

Now let me address the subject of "worse" schools.

First, I'll say that a School is the sum of three things, the quality of the physical building including educational equipment, the quality of staff and the quality of the student / parent body. Averages and statistics can once again confirm the common denominator in what makes an under performing and violent school that way; the negative qualities of the parent /student body. Moving a problem to another location does not solve a problem, it spreads the problem like a disease.

While it may seem more fair to treat everyone as an individual, ascertaining an individual's characteristics takes time and experience. Even when that is done, racism is cried when those correctly ascertained characteristics are not evenly distributed amongst ethnic groups. That's why both educational standards and professional certifications test standards have been lowered in complexity. Perhaps you have heard some court cases against standardized test score racial distributions for promotion or entrance tests for civil servants?

[Coito ergo sum]

Yea, GO and find those selective untrue articles defending Zimmerman. You're just as bad as him.

What you're relying on (a quote you indignantly included with your post on Saturday):

Minutes before Zimmerman opened fire on Trayvon, he told a dispatcher, ”There’s a real suspicious guy. This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. He looks black.”

The actual transcript:

Zimmerman: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”
Dispatcher: “OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?”
Zimmerman: “He looks black.”

So, I'm just as bad as Zimmerman, and in another post you said it is racist if people post incorrect things about this case. So, kiki, care to rephrase that in any way?

I've not meant to be mean toward you. But, your posts became aggressive and vitriolic toward anyone who doesn't express a particular view on it.

In the end, I'm not suggesting that I "believe" Zimmerman. I don't know. I do know that the level of outrage and threats of violence in the community and riotous clamoring for vengeance is misplaced. Zimmerman hasn't gone anywhere and he remains under investigation. Now, with all the pressure put on from various folks, there are more people checking the prostate of this case than would ever be possible in the normal criminal investigation. I have no doubt that there is tremendous pressure right now to "find a way" to convict Zimmerman. People are out for his blood. It's no longer about what happened that night, for those pressure groups demanding his head on a platter and his body roasted over a fire.

What we have now is the modern equivalent of villagers with pitchforks and torches.

[Coito ergo sum]

Marginalize "gangsta rap"
Nothing good can come of popular music that glorifies violence, misogyny, and general anti-social behavior. Children and young adults are impressionable, and being told in a socially acceptable manner that this is OK leads to crime. The Rappers take on a fictional persona not so unlike some of the Mafia movies and it becomes emulated by young minds. No one should want to be like Fifty-Cents anymore than they would want to be like Scarface.

And that's why it's copied and listened to by young people ALL over the world. I guess the whole world is stupid except YOU.

You say that as if it is a good thing That type of behavior is a cancer on civilized society.

Is death metal a cancer on society?
How about racism and bigotry?

There are more songs about love than anything else.
If songs could make you do something, then we'd all love one another.
Frank Zappa

QED.

[Coito ergo sum]

I also don't like acid rock, which is mostly played by white guys, but that don't mean I'm going to paint all of them as "skinheads".

Open up your mind.

Acid rock was mostly played by white folks, but none of them was a skinhead. Acid rock was played by hippies, and is among the most musically complex of all rock music. It's more artistic, so to speak, than a good deal of rock music in general. Major acid rock bands included Big Brother and the Holding Company, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, The Doors, Jefferson Airplane, the Velvet Underground, the Grateful Dead, etc.

This old white guy loves acid rock.

[Tyrannical]

I also don't like acid rock, which is mostly played by white guys, but that don't mean I'm going to paint all of them as "skinheads".

Open up your mind.

Acid rock was mostly played by white folks, but none of them was a skinhead. Acid rock was played by hippies, and is among the most musically complex of all rock music. It's more artistic, so to speak, than a good deal of rock music in general. Major acid rock bands included Big Brother and the Holding Company, Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, The Doors, Jefferson Airplane, the Velvet Underground, the Grateful Dead, etc.

This old white guy loves acid rock.

I am quite the big Hendrix fan, both his commercially released works and his large library of live and studio work. Brilliant musician that died before his time.
It's a shame that so much Black musical talent has taken toward encouraging anti-social behavior.

Though I will admit a guilty pleasure for N.W.A. Straight out of Compton. I never laughed so hard and every muscle in my face ached. I'd never felt so much pain (it hurt, seriously!) and laughter at the same time. But it is comedy, not a life style to be emulated.