Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[Ronja]

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Zimmerman called 911 and said the guy was walking between the houses. That's been the fact since day one. It's not something new.
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Here - look at the investigation reported by the Orlando sentinal - http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... k-teenager

Coito, there is nothing in the article that you linked to that would suggest that Martin was walking between the houses.

Moreover, the only cited source to that Martin would have been walking between the houses that I have found, is an interview with Zimmerman's father on Fox 35 in Orlando, who claims his son told him this. This interview seems to have gotten quite a few citations in the press. But even if there were something suspicious about walking between the houses (and I question that, see below), person A saying that person B told them something is not evidence, it's hearsay.

Furthermore, take a good look at the picture below. That is the pawed path between the houses, walking along which would somehow have been weird, according to Zimmerman's father. Now I don't know much about Florida gated communities, but I've seen several of these kinds of pawed walkways between houses and behind houses at the outskirt of the area (next to the wall or fence+shrubbery) in the three that I have visited. Also elsewhere in (non-gated) Florida and other parts of the US I have seen walkways or sand-covered alleys between houses, and a road or street on the other side of each row of houses. Walking down that pawed walkway would seem like a pretty normal thing to me.

This picture is from this article in the Tampa Bay Times: http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninter ... in/1221799 The article gives an IMO pretty believable analysis of why Zimmerman had little possibility of knowing who really was an "insider" and who an "outsider" in the Retreat at Twin Lakes.



Even with the partial police report that the Orlando Sentinel got hold of, where Zimmerman's injuries are described (his back was damp and covered in grass and he was bleeding from his nose and from the back of his head), I would still say that it looks a lot like Zimmerman brought about this tragedy by being overly vigilant in general and specifically by disregarding the 911 dispatcher's telling him that he did not need to follow Martin. A calm and short opinion piece in Tampa Bay Online sums up a lot of the political failings that preceded, and in many ways made this kind of a tragedy more likely.

[FBM]

The more I learn about both people involved, the more I suspect that both of them did something wrong. This whole "who was in the right and who was in the wrong" debacle may very well be a false dilemma and a red herring.

[Tyrannical]

The more I learn about both people involved, the more I suspect that both of them did something wrong. This whole "who was in the right and who was in the wrong" debacle may very well be a false dilemma and a red herring.

It's simple really.
Trayvon was in the wrong because Trayvon broke the law by assaulting Zimmerman. Zimmerman broke no law and thus committed no wrong.

[FBM]

The more I learn about both people involved, the more I suspect that both of them did something wrong. This whole "who was in the right and who was in the wrong" debacle may very well be a false dilemma and a red herring.

It's simple really.
Trayvon was in the wrong because Trayvon broke the law by assaulting Zimmerman. Zimmerman broke no law and thus committed no wrong.

Nobody except for Zimmerman knows either of those statements to be true or false, it seems. People are rushing to their preferred conclusions and cherry-picking from the numerous claims in an ad hoc fashion, seems.

[kiki5711]

If you listen to the actual tape it's clear that Trayvon was running away, then apparently Zimmerman caught up to him and started beating him, hence the voice on the recording yelling for help, then a shot heard right after that.

Zimmerman never claimed that he was yelling for help due to, as he says, he was the one being attacked, instead he decided the best way to end this is to shoot, once he was close enough.

Even though he was told by the dispatcher NOT to follow him and meet the police first, he took it on his own to follow anyway.

If you listen at about 6.00...on the tape, you start hearing the help voice. Zimmerman himself said on the tape, oh, now he's running. At first Trayvon appears to be looking back to see why this guy is following him and coming closer to him. I'm thinking this is when zimmerman shows him his gun and Trayvon starts running the other way, and then zimmerman ran after him.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/ ... xperts-say

[mistermack]

What's amazing about this case is that Zimmerman's story is so obviously false, yet the police accepted it.
They had the tape, you can clearly hear a young kid's voice calling for help. They had clear evidence from the girl he was talking to on the phone, saying that Martin was being followed and was scared, RIGHT UP TO THE FIRST MOMENT OF THE ENCOUNTER !!
So it was perfectly obvious right from the start that Zimmerman was lying about going back to his car, and being attacked from behind.
Martin's girlfriend gave her account of the conversation straight away. It's far better evidence than that of Zimmerman, who has EVERYTHING to hide.

What it shows is that the investigation was not just incompetent, it was criminally biased.
No wonder the police chief had to resign.

Nothing would surprise me about America, but I think Zimmerman is sunk.
That grand jury WILL require charges, and he WILL get convicted. His story is full of holes.

[FBM]

Sounded to me like Zimmerman was pretty calm, mild and was preparing to meet officers at the agreed-upon meeting point by the mailboxes in a few minutes. Didn't sound like he was planning to go hunt the guy down and kill him. The screaming also sounded pretty deep for a 16-y.o. Sounded more like an adult male in a panic.

But I don't know any of that for sure, am not willing to make a call on such scant evidence, and I think I'm in the minority when I admit that.

[kiki5711]

Sounded to me like Zimmerman was pretty calm, mild and was preparing to meet officers at the agreed-upon meeting point by the mailboxes in a few minutes. Didn't sound like he was planning to go hunt the guy down and kill him. The screaming also sounded pretty deep for a 16-y.o. Sounded more like an adult male in a panic.

But I don't know any of that for sure, am not willing to make a call on such scant evidence, and I think I'm in the minority when I admit that.

If that voice "that clearly sounds younger to most everyone, seems except you" even if it was zimmerman's, that would mean Trayvon had somehow taken the gun from zimmerman, why else would he be yelling for help. Zimmerman never said he was running away from Trayvon and Trayvon attacked him from the back so therefore he had to shoot him. And zimmerman NEVER said he was yelling for help, never said his gun was taken, and if it was then Trayvon would not be dead.

How can two people looking at the same evidence see two different colors. To me it only shows bias and you hear only what you WANT to hear.

The "Help" yelling was more of someone being attacked NOT someone holding a gun and yelling for support.

[kiki5711]

What's amazing about this case is that Zimmerman's story is so obviously false, yet the police accepted it.
They had the tape, you can clearly hear a young kid's voice calling for help. They had clear evidence from the girl he was talking to on the phone, saying that Martin was being followed and was scared, RIGHT UP TO THE FIRST MOMENT OF THE ENCOUNTER !!
So it was perfectly obvious right from the start that Zimmerman was lying about going back to his car, and being attacked from behind.
Martin's girlfriend gave her account of the conversation straight away. It's far better evidence than that of Zimmerman, who has EVERYTHING to hide.

What it shows is that the investigation was not just incompetent, it was criminally biased.
No wonder the police chief had to resign.

Nothing would surprise me about America, but I think Zimmerman is sunk.
That grand jury WILL require charges, and he WILL get convicted. His story is full of holes.

Also, what's clearly soooo wrong is that zimmerman's shooting was not thoroughly investigated as every OTHER shooting would have been. EVEN for real cops, after they shoot someone for pure legit reason, there's a hearing panel, then some time followed by psychiatric evaluation as well. No matter the reason they had to pull the trigger and kill, it's still a killing and can leave mental impairment and judgment in future incidents. THIS IS a procedure all over the country, why was it not for Zimmerman who was not even a cop, A SELF appointed neighborhood watchman, not trained, not disciplined.

[mistermack]

Sounded to me like Zimmerman was pretty calm, mild and was preparing to meet officers at the agreed-upon meeting point by the mailboxes in a few minutes. Didn't sound like he was planning to go hunt the guy down and kill him. The screaming also sounded pretty deep for a 16-y.o. Sounded more like an adult male in a panic.

But I don't know any of that for sure, am not willing to make a call on such scant evidence, and I think I'm in the minority when I admit that.

Except that it's not scant evidence. It's good quality audio, much better than the minimum needed for analysis.
It sounded EXACTLY like a seventeen-year-old to me, and more importantly, the two independent experts both ruled out Zimmerman.

And the girlfriend Martin was talking to isn't scant evidence, it's extremely good evidence, and Martin was telling her that he was walking away fast, but wasn't going to run. This was just a few seconds before the sound of the scuffle. And her phone record proves that, as it coincides with the phone record of the 911 call.

So Zimmerman was lying immediately after the incident. And the police must have noticed that, yet still didn't want to arrest him.

I think the lies about who was screaming will sink him in court. The expert witnesses can show that he lied about that, and that will taint everything else that he's claimed.
What if the prosecution asked him to scream for them, in court?

The experts can just compare the voice fingerprints in front of the jury, and prove he's lying.
And if he refuses, he's sunk himself anyway.

[FBM]

You're touching on my point, kiki. People do derive diverse conclusions from the same evidence, escpecially when it is as sketchy as this, and they do so very often based on emotional or political bias, rather than objective, evidence-based reasoning.

For example, a possibility you seem to have overlooked is the possibility that Zimmerman was taking a beating from the kid, while still in possession of his weapon and reluctant to use it, but finally saw no other recourse but to use it in self-defense. I'm not saying that this is what happened, but only that it's another logical possibility left open by the evidence, but widely ignored by many.

I've never tried to either defend or condemn either of the two persons involved; I've only been pointing out the flaws in each camp's arguments. In particular, that they are based more on emotional/political bias rather than objective analysis of the available evidence.

Logically speaking, either Martin was guilty or Zimmerman was. Or neither of them, or both of them. A case-book quadrilemma. Without conclusive evidence as to which of those possibilities are true, people are jumping to biased, emotionally-fueled, preferred conclusions, rather than waiting for all the evidence to be analyzed. This, to me, is more of a travesty of justice than anything else.

I don't know what happened for certain, neither does anyone else who wasn't there. At least I admit it, unlike other people on both sides of the issue who rant mindlessly and with full prejudice and blind confidence, despite the huge gaps in information and evidence.

For example, since I have no preferred conclusion, yes, I can imagine the screaming on that 911 call as being from either a deep-voiced young guy or an older guy in panic. It's not conclusive and I admit that, rather than make a decision based on prejudice. If that bothers you, sue me. But I'm sticking with my assertion that the evidence is inconclusive. If it were conclusive, this discussion wouldn't even be taking place, would it?

[amused]

I still think that the crime occurred when Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle, armed. He has no authority, was told by the authorities not to do that, and instead willfully chose to create a confrontation while armed.

[mistermack]

I've seen a lot of fights in my time, and many where people were horribly beaten. Zimmerman is virtually unmarked. AND YET, I've never EVER heard a grown man scream like on the tape.

Zimmerman is an ex-bouncer, providing security for illegal parties. He would presumably have had plenty of experience of physical confrontations. I've seen lots of bouncers fighting. I've never heard one scream like that. If anyone can say that those screams were typical of a bouncer fighting, they are lying.

But they DO sound just like a kid would scream, with a gun pointed at him, and some loony telling him he was going to die.

Another odd thing is why the police have seemingly not asked Zimmerman why he didn't threaten Martin with the gun, rather than shoot him? That would usually be enough for most people.

If his story is that they were actually fighting for possession of the gun, that could probably be verified by gunshot residue, by fingerprints, and possibly by blood spatter, and the angle of the bullet etc.

None of this appears to have been investigated. The police have just taken his word for all of it.
It looks more bent all the time.

[FBM]

Anecdotes and bias. Useless, logically speaking. If you don't know for sure, man up and admit it. Stumping for your emotional/political bias is just muddying the water. Hurting, not helping.

[mistermack]

Anecdotes and bias. Useless, logically speaking. If you don't know for sure, man up and admit it. Stumping for your emotional/political bias is just muddying the water. Hurting, not helping.

I never once said I knew for sure.

Man up, and admit that !!

I'm pointing to widely available evidence, and where it points.
Man up and admit that !

I'm saying that the evidence points to Zimmerman lying, so he should have been properly investigated and charged. IT SHOULD BE FOR A JURY TO DECIDE.

Man up and admit that !!

And my point from the beginning is that this was always an inept and racially biased investigation, which would never have gone like it did, if Zimmerman was black, and Martin was white.