Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[Coito ergo sum]

Inference from anecdotal evidence is inherently faulty (Pyrrho, Hume, et al). I have no bias driving me to desire to either prove or disprove any claims. My only aim is to point out sloppy reasoning and the foolishness of clinging to opinions based on emotionally or politically (not that there's a difference) charged biases. I'm not saying you're right; I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out that you don't really know, just as I don't really know. When someone who doesn't really know makes claims to knowledge, s/he can be said to be talking out of his/her ass, no?

Well, the reasoning that I find sloppy is that this guy's story of being in fear of his life should be accepted, unless there is evidence at the scene to contradict it.

Just because they haven't arrested him doesn't mean that they "accepted" his story.

In the cases of organized crime, for example, the police often "know" someone is guilty without having enough evidence to charge them. The question isn't whether his story is accepted, the question is whether there was enough evidence to charge him. And, if Zimmerman was waiting at the scene, cooperated, explained that he was attacked, and had wounds to prove it, AND a witness on the scene gave a statement that Zimmerman was being attacked, then maybe there wasn't enough to arrest him.

That does not mean the investigation ends, or that they can't arrest him tomorrow or the next day.

That story should have been vigorously tested by the police, and in court. It might be true. It might be lies. People often lie after killing an unarmed kid. Strange but true !!!

Of course people claiming that they know something they don't is sloppy reasoning. But it's just an outraged response to phenomenally sloppy reasoning by the police. And they are the ones with the power and responsibility.

We don't know it was sloppy reasoning. It appears to possibly also be sloppy reasoning that "black person shot by white guy = racist shooting," by the agitators like Reverand Al. It stops being about what actually happened in this case, and starts being about "larger questions."

[maiforpeace]

They were not effectively prejudging the entire case; they were only acting on an evaluation of the evidence present at the scene at the time as per the legal protocol that instructs their behavior in all such cases. Had they done otherwise, Zimmerman would have a case to sue them, instead.

I would like to see the law revised such that anyone killing anyone would at least be detained without charges until a reasonably thorough investigation of the scene were conducted. However, until this revision takes place, the police should obey their legally mandated protocols. Neither you nor I nor anyone else not at the scene knows what they saw and experienced. Until dispassionate experts have evaluated the evidence, I don't see a place for keyboard quarterbacks in judging Zimmerman's guilt or innocence.

Sue them for what? Unlawful arrest?
I would like to see that in court. Armed man kills unarmed kid. Unlawful arrest? What planet ........ ?

I would just like to see equality, at the least. Reverse the races, and he would be in jail awaiting trial. Quite rightly.

It's just a matter of time before people of color outnumber whites. They already do in San Jose, for example. It would be interesting to see how that has translated into our system of justice.

[FBM]

And the evidence that Zimmerman was motivated by race is...?

[Coito ergo sum]

He should be held until a proper investigation is conducted, and everybody else,

I don't know why that would be the case...

Because somebody died and it's worth one person's brief inconvenience to make sure it wasn't a crime.

Putting someone in jail is not a mere inconvenience. I don't know if you've ever visited a jail. I've never been a prisoner, but I have visited jails. They are awful places, and the jail officials do not give a fuck if you are "presumed innocent." You're lucky if you'll get medical treatment if you need it. If you're cold they don't care. You generally sleep on a mat, not a bed. You wear insufficient clothing, are often cold, and you sit there by yourself (if your'e lucky) or in a group of criminals who may harm you, threaten you and certainly scare the fuck out of you. To call a county lock-up, or something like that, a "brief inconvenience," is a tremendous understatement.

Moreover, what answers are the police going to get in "24 hours" of holding the guy in a cell? Zimmerman isn't going anywhere, apparently. He is still at his house in the same neighborhood where the event occurred. The investigation is not contingent on holding him. The coroner can still do an inquest and autopsy, and there is no way that would be completed in 24 hours. I haven't seen any report that it is even completed yet. So what would we do? Hold him in jail pending a determination whether there was probable cause to arrest? Arrest him in pending a determination whether there was probable cause to arrest him?

If he was arrested, he likely would have been released on bond. If there was probable cause to arrest, then he should have been arrested. If there wasn't, then he shouldn't have been. I have seen some reports which, if true, would lead me to believe he should have been arrested. I have seen other reports which lead me to believe that he should not have been arrested.

However, what we don't do is conduct "investigatory arrests" wherein we hold people indefinitely until the police get done doing whatever they have to do to determine if there is a reason to arrest someone. That is something they do in police states. I wouldn't want that here.

If there has been racial misconduct on the part of the police, and if they were unjustified in not arresting the guy on the night of the shooting, then throw the book at Zimmerman and the police who failed to make the arrest. However, let's remember that Zimmerman can be arrested today. So, why hasn't he been? If this is really such a tragic miscarriage of racial justice and the guy "clearly" and "plainly" should have been arrested on the night of the shooting - why isn't the State attorney's office obtaining an arrest warrant for Zimmerman now? Arrest the guy. There are plenty of good, non-racist people in the State Attorney's office, and they have had days now to soberly look at the evidence under the watchful eyes of Reverand Al and his cadre. And even racists aren't going to shed a tear about arresting a Mexican, are they? They'd think "good! two birds with one stone - the black guy is dead, and we can throw the Mexican in jail..."

[Coito ergo sum]

And the evidence that Zimmerman was motivated by race is...?

I read something in an article that he may have used the word "coon", but that isn't clear and he denied it.

[mistermack]

When a police officer breaches protocol, the police force is potentially legally liable. If the law says that a person is such a situation cannot be arrested, and the police arrest him anyway, that's unlawful arrest. What's difficult about that?

What's difficult is that it's complete bollocks. The law doesn't say that.
This man's only defence to manslaughter is inside his own head. His alleged fear of death.
Being in a fight is not enough. Even if you are losing.
Do you seriously think that the law says a person in such a situation cannot be arrested?

Even if he was black?

[maiforpeace]

And the evidence that Zimmerman was motivated by race is...?

Who are you responding to? Or is that general question to everyone?

EDITED

Nevermind...but quoting would be helpful since this discussion is a bit warm.

[FBM]

I was incarcerated in Korea for 3 days and nights. I'd visited several US jails before that time in my former line of work in the US. You don't want to be a guest in a Korean jail, trust me on this. But I got over it. I know why they kept me and have no beef with them for it. It was an interesting, if uncomfortable, experience.

[FBM]

He should be held until a proper investigation is conducted, and everybody else,

I don't know why that would be the case...

Because somebody died and it's worth one person's brief inconvenience to make sure it wasn't a crime.

Putting someone in jail is not a mere inconvenience. I don't know if you've ever visited a jail. I've never been a prisoner, but I have visited jails. They are awful places, and the jail officials do not give a fuck if you are "presumed innocent." You're lucky if you'll get medical treatment if you need it. If you're cold they don't care. You generally sleep on a mat, not a bed. You wear insufficient clothing, are often cold, and you sit there by yourself (if your'e lucky) or in a group of criminals who may harm you, threaten you and certainly scare the fuck out of you. To call a county lock-up, or something like that, a "brief inconvenience," is a tremendous understatement.

Moreover, what answers are the police going to get in "24 hours" of holding the guy in a cell? Zimmerman isn't going anywhere, apparently. He is still at his house in the same neighborhood where the event occurred. The investigation is not contingent on holding him. The coroner can still do an inquest and autopsy, and there is no way that would be completed in 24 hours. I haven't seen any report that it is even completed yet. So what would we do? Hold him in jail pending a determination whether there was probable cause to arrest? Arrest him in pending a determination whether there was probable cause to arrest him?

If he was arrested, he likely would have been released on bond. If there was probable cause to arrest, then he should have been arrested. If there wasn't, then he shouldn't have been. I have seen some reports which, if true, would lead me to believe he should have been arrested. I have seen other reports which lead me to believe that he should not have been arrested.

However, what we don't do is conduct "investigatory arrests" wherein we hold people indefinitely until the police get done doing whatever they have to do to determine if there is a reason to arrest someone. That is something they do in police states. I wouldn't want that here.

If there has been racial misconduct on the part of the police, and if they were unjustified in not arresting the guy on the night of the shooting, then throw the book at Zimmerman and the police who failed to make the arrest. However, let's remember that Zimmerman can be arrested today. So, why hasn't he been? If this is really such a tragic miscarriage of racial justice and the guy "clearly" and "plainly" should have been arrested on the night of the shooting - why isn't the State attorney's office obtaining an arrest warrant for Zimmerman now? Arrest the guy. There are plenty of good, non-racist people in the State Attorney's office, and they have had days now to soberly look at the evidence under the watchful eyes of Reverand Al and his cadre. And even racists aren't going to shed a tear about arresting a Mexican, are they? They'd think "good! two birds with one stone - the black guy is dead, and we can throw the Mexican in jail..."

I was incarcerated in Korea for 3 days and nights. I'd visited several US jails before that time in my former line of work in the US. You don't want to be a guest in a Korean jail, trust me on this. But I got over it. I know why they kept me and have no beef with them for it. It was an interesting, if uncomfortable, experience.

Sorry, that's what I meant to post.

[Coito ergo sum]

It's just a matter of time before people of color outnumber whites. They already do in San Jose, for example. It would be interesting to see how that has translated into our system of justice.

By San Jose standards, Zimmerman was a "person of color." Racist cops tend not to be fans of Latinos.

[FBM]

And the evidence that Zimmerman was motivated by race is...?

I read something in an article that he may have used the word "coon", but that isn't clear and he denied it.

So it's a nothing claim, innit?

When a police officer breaches protocol, the police force is potentially legally liable. If the law says that a person is such a situation cannot be arrested, and the police arrest him anyway, that's unlawful arrest. What's difficult about that?

What's difficult is that it's complete bollocks. The law doesn't say that.
This man's only defence to manslaughter is inside his own head. His alleged fear of death.
Being in a fight is not enough. Even if you are losing.
Do you seriously think that the law says a person in such a situation cannot be arrested?

Even if he was black?

If a police officer breaches legally mandated protocol, the police force as a whole is potentially liable. Do I need to post examples from the numerous times police forces have been sued for such? That list could get very long very quickly.

[maiforpeace]

The one big difference between these two people is age...is that not a consideration when it comes to feeling threatened? We've discussed size, haven't we?
I am mostly fearful of somebody's size...because I have much less of a chance being the smaller one. But frankly, if we were equal in size, or I was the larger one, if I'm dealing with someone younger and inexperienced, I feel like I have an upper hand being more experienced, having been trained in self defense, being familiar with street, of which Zimmerman would have been all those things. So there's something fishy to me about Zimmerman's story for those reasons.

[Coito ergo sum]

I was incarcerated in Korea for 3 days and nights. I'd visited several US jails before that time in my former line of work in the US. You don't want to be a guest in a Korean jail, trust me on this. But I got over it. I know why they kept me and have no beef with them for it. It was an interesting, if uncomfortable, experience.

One's liberty is an important thing under the American system. Jailing someone ought not be taken lightly. Even a brief stay in jail can result in one's life being turned upside down. There is the trauma of being in jail. There is the loss of work time, and potentially the loss of one's job for not showing up to work.

Again - how long would you hold the guy? If you are referring to the 24 hours referred to by others here, then what good would that have even done? Nobody is done with the investigation, and I guess he would have been released after 24 hours, given that it's been days now and nobody has arrested him yet.

And, he can still be arrested. If there was probable cause on the night of the shooting, then that probable cause exists today. Is there probable cause? Many State officials have looked at this now - cops, the cops supervisors, the Chief of Police/Sheriff, the Mayor of the City, the State Attorneys office, the Governor. Everyone.

Zimmerman remains free. Either the entire State of Florida wants Mexicans shooting black people willy-nilly and refuses to do anything about it, or there is something those calling for Zimmerman-blood are missing.

[maiforpeace]

Well, the police chief of Sanford has stepped down. Who takes over now? The city council?

[Coito ergo sum]

The one big difference between these two people is age...is that not a consideration when it comes to feeling threatened? We've discussed size, haven't we?
I am mostly fearful of somebody's size...because I have much less of a chance being the smaller one. But frankly, if we were equal in size, or I was the larger one, if I'm dealing with someone younger and inexperienced, I feel like I have an upper hand being more experienced, having been trained in self defense, being familiar with street, of which Zimmerman would have been all those things. So there's something fishy to me about Zimmerman's story for those reasons.

What if we assume the younger person is atop the older person, beating the older person about the face? What if we assume that a witness saw this, and told the cops that it occurred, corroborating the older person's story?