Fine tuned universe

[Hermit]

Thing is, improbability does not defeat the notion that God exists. Now, an argument of fine tuning that says that divine intervention is the ONLY way things could be as they are is vacuous.

Yes and yes. I definitely agree that proving the non-existence of a god is impossible. My point is much less ambitious: To show that fine tuning is no proof of a god's existence. The attempt is fatally flawed because it fails to show how or where unlikelihood metamorphoses into impossibility.

[apophenia]

Funny how the existence of God looks an awful lot like the non-existence of God. Parsimony is a bitch.




Viktor Stenger wrote a book explaining the myth of fine tuning, which I own but haven't read. Somehow I trust Stenger more than William slow Lane Craig.

Telling Craig to shut the fuck up would advance Christian apologetics immmeasurably.

[Deep Sea Isopod]

There is a way out and it is this
If between now and when the Sun
implodes we can develop commercial
space travel with capability way beyond
the Solar System we can preserve the race
least in part : it would be practical to find an
habitable world with similar atmosphere though
the odds on that are probably next to infinitesimal
but what is the alternative : to sit here for five more
billion years waiting for the Sun to implode and turn into
a dwarf star while we die from lack of heat : might as well
start looking around now : this might take longer than we think

There could be this old guy who could build the spaceship in 7 days, then fill it with 2 of every creature, then fly off into space.

[Brian Peacock]

I make no claims about the purpose and intentions of God, (if it exists) because to do so is to presume to know the mind of God, which seems rather arrogant to begin with. Perhaps just this little corner of the universe was ordered for our benefit and the rest is for the benefit of someone else. After all, Einstein himself said that the speed of light may be a localized phenomenon.

Perhaps. If. Maybe. The premise of religious institutions is that right-action and right-thought etc must be in accord with the will, desire, or intent of their nominated deity/deities which must necessarily exist. I acknowledge that you make no explicit claim as to the intentions and purposes of God, but here you have provided a claim that even 'if' God exists then one cannot know anything of Her divine intent (and presumably Her nature too). Where does that leave the religious traditions predicated on an extant God?

Are you a deist perchance?

Why would you presume to appraise anything? Their beliefs are their own, and so long as they peaceably practice them, what does it matter to you? They may be wrong in their beliefs...or you may be. Eventually you will find out I suppose.

That was not my point was it. I was making a distinction between what we can know and what we cannot. It does not matter to me at all if the religious find comfort or strength, or are motivated towards the good in a peaceable and tolerant fashion by their faith, but the content and nature of such beliefs do become a concern for all of us when religious beliefs and practices are promoted as a normative ethic or an intellectual or social obligation. But as I say, that was not my point.

So. How might we arrive at such knowledge?

Ask God I suppose.

How would one know if, when or what God replied?

I'm told that doing so honestly with an open heart often results in direct information from the source.

But that would amount to knowledge of God's intent and purpose, something that you suggest cannot be known and which would be arrogant to presume.

I'm unconvinced that this actually happens, but it's not up to me to judge the religious experiences of others. I just tolerate their peaceable exercise of their faith and allow them their beliefs...or their delusions...so long as they remain harmless to me, and I accept that if their beliefs, true or untrue, give them hope, solace, comfort or pleasure, it's beyond my mandate to interfere or question their experiences.

I totally agree. Though I think they are wrong in a strict epistemic sense the content of everybodies psyche is theirs to order as they wish. As long as they do no harm, or at least very little relative harm, it is not really my place to tell them to that there is no 'knowledge' at the foundation of their faith. That's why religions are called 'Faiths' I suppose.

If God wants you to have the answers, presumably It will fill you in on the details, being God and all.

Perhaps so, but that would require God to first fulfil the necessary condition of existing and, as I have mentioned, that would amount to a knowledge.

Until then, patience and tolerance of the beliefs of others seem to me to be the appropriate behavior, not hatred, bigotry and intolerance.

I do hope you are making a general note to that effect and not presuming axiomatic hatred, bigotry and intolerance on my part, on the part of any person who does not share the beliefs and adhere to the practices of any particular religious tradition or denomination thereof (or none)?

I've got my towel...how about you?

A dude's gotta know where his towel is - that's all I am prepared to say on the matter until I've had a couple more drinks.

[Coito ergo sum]

~99.9999% of the Universe is hard vacuum.
~99.9999% of what's left is flaming nuclear fireballs.
~99.9999% of what's left from that is cold interstellar gas.
~99.9999% of what's left from that is barren, airless balls of rock or gas giants, neither of which can sustain life.
~99.9999% of what's left from that is barely habitable planets like Mars.
Then we come to Earth.

Not only that, but 70% of the universe is dark energy.
Dark matter makes up 25%
That leaves 5%.

Your numbers relate to that 5%.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

~99.9999% of the Universe is hard vacuum.
~99.9999% of what's left is flaming nuclear fireballs.
~99.9999% of what's left from that is cold interstellar gas.
~99.9999% of what's left from that is barren, airless balls of rock or gas giants, neither of which can sustain life.
~99.9999% of what's left from that is barely habitable planets like Mars.
Then we come to Earth.

Not only that, but 70% of the universe is dark energy.
Dark matter makes up 25%
That leaves 5%.

Your numbers relate to that 5%.

Yeah, true. However, Neil Tyson okayed those numbers, I sniped them from a blog post of his. I think he accounted for dark matter in that post, but don't remember off the top.

[Coito ergo sum]

I suppose the metric is much like that of obscenity...you can't define it, but you know it when you see it.

Exactly. That's my point.

Why are you so stuck on definitions? Why don't you just experience life and all its mysteries without trying to quantify and define the unquantifiable and indefinable?

We're not talking about how we might experience life and all its mysteries here. We're talking about "Fine Tuning". It's supposed to be a proof of a god's existence. It isn't, and I have given my reasoning why it isn't.

Thing is, improbability does not defeat the notion that God exists. Now, an argument of fine tuning that says that divine intervention is the ONLY way things could be as they are is vacuous. But an argument that says that divine intervention is ONE POSSIBLE WAY that things came to be as they are is something else altogether.

To that extent, and ONLY to that extent, divine intervention, like an infinite number of other "possibilities" are, perhaps, possibly possible. That, of course, says nothing whatever about whether the universe is "fine tuned." There may be a deity, possibly, and it's possible that the deity fine tuned the universe, and it's possible that the deity did not fine tune the universe, and that the existence of the universe is an accident wholly distinct from the existence of the deity. I.e., the deity may not even know we exist, and may have had nothing to do with it. Possibly possible. We can dream up any of an infinite number of possibilities.

For example, if our universe is the product of a science experiment taking place in an adjacent membrane universe in which "God" injected a monoblock of matter the size of (to Him) a pea into a recently-inflated membrane universe to see what happens, after fine-tuning the physical properties of that empty universe using his UNASS (Universal New Attribute Selection System) Mod 2 (available at fine physics supply stores membrane wide) this would provide a non-supernatural, non-divine explanation of why things in this universe are as they are that comports with a faulty human understanding and exposition of "divine intervention and fine tuning," wouldn't it?

Perhaps. However, there is there any indication or evidence that such is the case?

The fact that you can dream up a scenario where we are in a universe created in a lab doesn't answer the question of whether our universe is, in fact, fine tuned, or whether there is evidence for said fine tuning.

[Coito ergo sum]

~99.9999% of the Universe is hard vacuum.
~99.9999% of what's left is flaming nuclear fireballs.
~99.9999% of what's left from that is cold interstellar gas.
~99.9999% of what's left from that is barren, airless balls of rock or gas giants, neither of which can sustain life.
~99.9999% of what's left from that is barely habitable planets like Mars.
Then we come to Earth.

Not only that, but 70% of the universe is dark energy.
Dark matter makes up 25%
That leaves 5%.

Your numbers relate to that 5%.

Yeah, true. However, Neil Tyson okayed those numbers, I sniped them from a blog post of his. I think he accounted for dark matter in that post, but don't remember off the top.

One can add to that, to increase the effect, the notion that even solid matter is mostly empty space. Point out to folks that every atom is, in relative terms, like a golf ball sitting in the middle of Yankee Stadium, with the electrons revolving around the outside of the stadium. Even the 5% of the universe that constitutes "matter" is mostly empty.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

True, but going down to that level isn't as telling, because it's just structure, if you know what I mean. Compared to a mostly empty universe a mostly empty human isn't so important.

[Tero]

God still fine tuning universe 6000 years after creation. He must have used a cheap subcontractor
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/21 ... _findings/

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So, one stray gamma ray burst and Earth is a crispy critter. Very finely tuned, eh what?

[Atheist-Lite]

So, one stray gamma ray burst and Earth is a crispy critter. Very finely tuned, eh what?

Maybe the fine-tuner doesn't like us? Playing devils advocate for a moment...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So, one stray gamma ray burst and Earth is a crispy critter. Very finely tuned, eh what?

Maybe the fine-tuner doesn't like us? Playing devils advocate for a moment...

IF he/she/it exists I'd say they flat out hate us.

[Atheist-Lite]

So, one stray gamma ray burst and Earth is a crispy critter. Very finely tuned, eh what?

Maybe the fine-tuner doesn't like us? Playing devils advocate for a moment...

IF he/she/it exists I'd say they flat out hate us.

Could explain a lot if the God of the Old Testament actually did exist?

[Hermit]

So, one stray gamma ray burst and Earth is a crispy critter. Very finely tuned, eh what?

Maybe the fine-tuner doesn't like us? Playing devils advocate for a moment...

IF he/she/it exists I'd say they flat out hate us.

If a god exists, that is an an entirely feasible notion, and that tiny sect of nutters calling itself the Westboro Southern Baptists would turn out to be entirely correct.