Fine tuned universe

[Hermit]

The odds on a coin landing tails
up continuously are exactly the same
as any other probability given that it has an
equal chance of landing heads or tails every time

Yes. The odds of a coin landing heads or tails up with the next toss are always 50%. What are the odds, though, of the coin landing tails up consecutively for, say a million or a billion times? Vanishingly small for sure, but impossible without the existence of a god?

I think you missed my point entirely.

[Atheist-Lite]

The universe may not be fine tuned or may be fine tuned, but either way is irrelevant to other questions entirely. It is also irrelavent to itself since it cannot be answered - it is a uncertain uncertainty of a certain certainty. No observational data can answer that on a universal scale since the concluding proof is always outside the data you can meaningfully collect. It is a endless regress to think in terms of tuning at all. You can never be sure of anything like that, there are always gonna be variables in the natural world that hint at tuning - even the size/distance 'coincidence' of the moons relative size to the sun could/may hint at intervention by superior 'universe tuning' forces....it is gonna generate steam though, lots of steam, if you fall for these kinds of argument. Things outside the universe by defintion don't exist. Worth remembering that one?

[Clinton Huxley]

The ruddy crows keep shitting on my car. Fine tuned universe my backside.

[Hermit]

And then there's the mosquito. Evidence of intelligent design? I think not. If some god did that, he's a fucking cretin.

[Brian Peacock]

Hiya Seth, how it going?

One day the Andromeda galaxy will smash into the Milky Way, but before that happens the Sun will have exploded in fireball that will have boiled away all trace that their was ever life on Earth. Another fine tuning fail.

Perhaps God intended for life on Earth to be obliterated. Indeed, the Bible suggests precisely that, with all the believers going to live eternally somewhere else. God may not particularly care what happens to the left-over bits in this universe. How does such a fate for the galaxies or the universe for that matter qualify as a "fine tuning fail?" After all, you would have to know the ultimate intent and purpose of the Creator for the universe in order to call it a "fail." Do you claim to know the mind of God?

Well I suppose that depends on whether one thinks that God (if She exists) has ordered the universe specifically for the benefit of one species, our own. As you suggest any claim that it was thusly orderded would also depend on knowledge of Her motivation and intentions for and towards Her creation.

I, of course, disbelieve claims for God and super-nature. I'm yet to be convinced. In the meantime I found my views in naturalism, that is; that God is not necessary to explain the origins of the universe, the existence of life on Earth and the diversity of the biosphere, that She necessary to explain the formation of stellar entities such as planets, stars, nebulae, galaxies, and whatnot, and that the ongoing development of our species' understanding of these natural phenomena amounts to knowledge in our possession

If others can provide reason or justification for a declared knowledge in God and Her motiveation and intent I am more than willing to listen though, and to apraise the justification for such knowledge-claims on their own merit and within their own terms.

So. How might we arrive at such knowledge?

It's a kind of arrogance, indeed a narcissistic solipsism, which maintains that the 13.7 billion year old universe was made just for the last 160,000-200,000 years of our species inhabitation of it.

How so? If that's what God intended, what business is it of yours how long it took to get to where he wanted it?

That us of the conjunctive 'if' necessarily speaks as to the current lack of knowledge in God and Her intent. The implicit claim is that it is possible to have knowledge of God and Her intent and so, as I have just mentioned above, I wait for something which might evidence that claim and justify that claim as knowledge.

I'll go with Douglas Adams' 'puddle theory' as an explanation for such patent stupidity...

Have you been to the planning office lately? I hear the Vogons have put in an application for an interstellar bypass...

As long as they don't force us listen to their poetry. Then we'll all be praying for e swift end!

[Seth]

Hiya Seth, how it going?

One day the Andromeda galaxy will smash into the Milky Way, but before that happens the Sun will have exploded in fireball that will have boiled away all trace that their was ever life on Earth. Another fine tuning fail.

Perhaps God intended for life on Earth to be obliterated. Indeed, the Bible suggests precisely that, with all the believers going to live eternally somewhere else. God may not particularly care what happens to the left-over bits in this universe. How does such a fate for the galaxies or the universe for that matter qualify as a "fine tuning fail?" After all, you would have to know the ultimate intent and purpose of the Creator for the universe in order to call it a "fail." Do you claim to know the mind of God?

Well I suppose that depends on whether one thinks that God (if She exists) has ordered the universe specifically for the benefit of one species, our own. As you suggest any claim that it was thusly orderded would also depend on knowledge of Her motivation and intentions for and towards Her creation.

I make no claims about the purpose and intentions of God, (if it exists) because to do so is to presume to know the mind of God, which seems rather arrogant to begin with. Perhaps just this little corner of the universe was ordered for our benefit and the rest is for the benefit of someone else. After all, Einstein himself said that the speed of light may be a localized phenomenon.

I, of course, disbelieve claims for God and super-nature. I'm yet to be convinced. In the meantime I found my views in naturalism, that is; that God is not necessary to explain the origins of the universe, the existence of life on Earth and the diversity of the biosphere, that She necessary to explain the formation of stellar entities such as planets, stars, nebulae, galaxies, and whatnot, and that the ongoing development of our species' understanding of these natural phenomena amounts to knowledge in our possession

If others can provide reason or justification for a declared knowledge in God and Her motiveation and intent I am more than willing to listen though, and to apraise the justification for such knowledge-claims on their own merit and within their own terms.

Why would you presume to appraise anything? Their beliefs are their own, and so long as they peaceably practice them, what does it matter to you? They may be wrong in their beliefs...or you may be. Eventually you will find out I suppose.

So. How might we arrive at such knowledge?

Ask God I suppose. I'm told that doing so honestly with an open heart often results in direct information from the source. I'm unconvinced that this actually happens, but it's not up to me to judge the religious experiences of others. I just tolerate their peaceable exercise of their faith and allow them their beliefs...or their delusions...so long as they remain harmless to me, and I accept that if their beliefs, true or untrue, give them hope, solace, comfort or pleasure, it's beyond my mandate to interfere or question their experiences.

It's a kind of arrogance, indeed a narcissistic solipsism, which maintains that the 13.7 billion year old universe was made just for the last 160,000-200,000 years of our species inhabitation of it.

How so? If that's what God intended, what business is it of yours how long it took to get to where he wanted it?

That us of the conjunctive 'if' necessarily speaks as to the current lack of knowledge in God and Her intent. The implicit claim is that it is possible to have knowledge of God and Her intent and so, as I have just mentioned above, I wait for something which might evidence that claim and justify that claim as knowledge.

If God wants you to have the answers, presumably It will fill you in on the details, being God and all. Until then, patience and tolerance of the beliefs of others seem to me to be the appropriate behavior, not hatred, bigotry and intolerance.

I'll go with Douglas Adams' 'puddle theory' as an explanation for such patent stupidity...

Have you been to the planning office lately? I hear the Vogons have put in an application for an interstellar bypass...

As long as they don't force us listen to their poetry. Then we'll all be praying for e swift end!

I've got my towel...how about you?

[Seth]

At what point does the chance of something to happen become so unlikely that it becomes impossible without divine intervention? The "unlikely, therefore God" brigade does not and cannot provide a criterion with which to decide that. It just asserts that for unknown reasons unlikelihood flips into impossibility somewhere.

Flip a coin. At what point can you say a continuous series of it landing tails up is so huge that it can only happen because a god's design made it possible? Is the threshold 1 in 10^50,000,000,000, or whatever? If so, how do the fine-tuners know?

Conflating unlikelihood with impossibility is a cheap, underhanded trick.

I suppose the metric is much like that of obscenity...you can't define it, but you know it when you see it.

[Seth]

The ruddy crows keep shitting on my car. Fine tuned universe my backside.

Evidently God doesn't like your car and has sent His crows to show his displeasure...

[Seth]

And then there's the mosquito. Evidence of intelligent design? I think not. If some god did that, he's a fucking cretin.

Without the mosquito there might not be malaria. Without malaria there might not be vast numbers of deaths in tropical climes. Without vast numbers of deaths in tropical climes, there might not be medical research to put an end to the dying. So perhaps the lowly mosquito is God's way of stimulating the development of quinine sulfate or any number of other drugs. Or perhaps it's His way of telling people not to live in tropical climes and limit their occupancy to more temperate regions where Culex does not thrive.

God may indeed be a capricious right bastard, but if so, all the more reason to tread carefully, since divine retribution is a stone bitch.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

From goolies and ghosties and things that go bump in the night, protect us, oh lord. And protect us from your imaginary wrath as well.

[Hermit]

At what point does the chance of something to happen become so unlikely that it becomes impossible without divine intervention? The "unlikely, therefore God" brigade does not and cannot provide a criterion with which to decide that. It just asserts that for unknown reasons unlikelihood flips into impossibility somewhere.

Flip a coin. At what point can you say a continuous series of it landing tails up is so huge that it can only happen because a god's design made it possible? Is the threshold 1 in 10^50,000,000,000, or whatever? If so, how do the fine-tuners know?

Conflating unlikelihood with impossibility is a cheap, underhanded trick.

I suppose the metric is much like that of obscenity...you can't define it, but you know it when you see it.

Exactly. That's my point.

[Seth]

At what point does the chance of something to happen become so unlikely that it becomes impossible without divine intervention? The "unlikely, therefore God" brigade does not and cannot provide a criterion with which to decide that. It just asserts that for unknown reasons unlikelihood flips into impossibility somewhere.

Flip a coin. At what point can you say a continuous series of it landing tails up is so huge that it can only happen because a god's design made it possible? Is the threshold 1 in 10^50,000,000,000, or whatever? If so, how do the fine-tuners know?

Conflating unlikelihood with impossibility is a cheap, underhanded trick.

I suppose the metric is much like that of obscenity...you can't define it, but you know it when you see it.

Exactly. That's my point.

Why are you so stuck on definitions? Why don't you just experience life and all its mysteries without trying to quantify and define the unquantifiable and indefinable?

[Hermit]

And then there's the mosquito. Evidence of intelligent design? I think not. If some god did that, he's a fucking cretin.

Without the mosquito there might not be malaria. Without malaria there might not be vast numbers of deaths in tropical climes. Without vast numbers of deaths in tropical climes, there might not be medical research to put an end to the dying. So perhaps the lowly mosquito is God's way of stimulating the development of quinine sulfate or any number of other drugs. Or perhaps it's His way of telling people not to live in tropical climes and limit their occupancy to more temperate regions where Culex does not thrive.

God may indeed be a capricious right bastard, but if so, all the more reason to tread carefully, since divine retribution is a stone bitch.

Yes, of course. And God created the shipworm to generate work for all those shipbuilders. Who are we to doubt his infinite wisdom?

[Hermit]

At what point does the chance of something to happen become so unlikely that it becomes impossible without divine intervention? The "unlikely, therefore God" brigade does not and cannot provide a criterion with which to decide that. It just asserts that for unknown reasons unlikelihood flips into impossibility somewhere.

Flip a coin. At what point can you say a continuous series of it landing tails up is so huge that it can only happen because a god's design made it possible? Is the threshold 1 in 10^50,000,000,000, or whatever? If so, how do the fine-tuners know?

Conflating unlikelihood with impossibility is a cheap, underhanded trick.

I suppose the metric is much like that of obscenity...you can't define it, but you know it when you see it.

Exactly. That's my point.

Why are you so stuck on definitions? Why don't you just experience life and all its mysteries without trying to quantify and define the unquantifiable and indefinable?

We're not talking about how we might experience life and all its mysteries here. We're talking about "Fine Tuning". It's supposed to be a proof of a god's existence. It isn't, and I have given my reasoning why it isn't.

[Seth]

At what point does the chance of something to happen become so unlikely that it becomes impossible without divine intervention? The "unlikely, therefore God" brigade does not and cannot provide a criterion with which to decide that. It just asserts that for unknown reasons unlikelihood flips into impossibility somewhere.

Flip a coin. At what point can you say a continuous series of it landing tails up is so huge that it can only happen because a god's design made it possible? Is the threshold 1 in 10^50,000,000,000, or whatever? If so, how do the fine-tuners know?

Conflating unlikelihood with impossibility is a cheap, underhanded trick.

I suppose the metric is much like that of obscenity...you can't define it, but you know it when you see it.

Exactly. That's my point.

Why are you so stuck on definitions? Why don't you just experience life and all its mysteries without trying to quantify and define the unquantifiable and indefinable?

We're not talking about how we might experience life and all its mysteries here. We're talking about "Fine Tuning". It's supposed to be a proof of a god's existence. It isn't, and I have given my reasoning why it isn't.

Thing is, improbability does not defeat the notion that God exists. Now, an argument of fine tuning that says that divine intervention is the ONLY way things could be as they are is vacuous. But an argument that says that divine intervention is ONE POSSIBLE WAY that things came to be as they are is something else altogether.

For example, if our universe is the product of a science experiment taking place in an adjacent membrane universe in which "God" injected a monoblock of matter the size of (to Him) a pea into a recently-inflated membrane universe to see what happens, after fine-tuning the physical properties of that empty universe using his UNASS (Universal New Attribute Selection System) Mod 2 (available at fine physics supply stores membrane wide) this would provide a non-supernatural, non-divine explanation of why things in this universe are as they are that comports with a faulty human understanding and exposition of "divine intervention and fine tuning," wouldn't it?