Parenting with a .45

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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by PsychoSerenity » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:04 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
tattuchu wrote:
MrJonno wrote:Anyone can snap, lose your job come home with find your wife in bed with someone else or even just being unlucky genetically, we are all capable of acts of great evil
And a gun makes it ridiculously easy to do it. Whereas, if I don't have a gun, I get mad, then I calm down, then I get over it, and no one is the worse for wear. If, however, I have an, oh, I dunno, INSTRUMENT OF FUCKING DEATH in my hand, the outcome may very well be different.
Tat, I remember speaking with a Navy corpsman after a little award ceremony in Sicily. He had been treating wounded Marines in a bomb crater when four VC dove into it. He killed them all. And he didn't even remember doing it. He had eyewitness statements from several of the Marines. He was the INSTRUMENT OF FUCKING DEATH, he killed them all with his bare hands. He got a very pretty blue ribbon with stars on it for that.
                      

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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by hadespussercats » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:11 pm

Instrument of Sheep-fucking Death?
The green careening planet
spins blindly in the dark
so close to annihilation.

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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by Seabass » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:12 pm

MrJonno wrote:Forget in Seth world there are law abiding citizens and a completely different species called criminals also known as bad guys.

Bullshit of course all human beings are violent animals that are sometimes have their urges controlled by civilization but when that fails you control the tools they can use for their violence.

Also love the way 'gangs' are other people, gangs are lawyers, politicans, policemen, nurses, solders and the occassional member of the royal family getting completely wasted and into trouble
tattuchu wrote: I've said similar. As if there are law-abiding citizens and criminals, and ne'er the 'twain shall meet, right? Fuck, put a gun in my hand and, with my temper, I can see myself becoming a criminal right quick. That's why I choose not to carry a gun. Seth's response to this was that I was a psychopath and that I should be locked up. For not carrying a gun, knowing my own limitations, and exercising caution accordingly, I should be locked up and the key thrown away :ddpan:
MrJonno wrote:Anyone can snap, lose your job come home with find your wife in bed with someone else or even just being unlucky genetically, we are all capable of acts of great evil
tattuchu wrote: And a gun makes it ridiculously easy to do it. Whereas, if I don't have a gun, I get mad, then I calm down, then I get over it, and no one is the worse for wear. If, however, I have an, oh, I dunno, INSTRUMENT OF FUCKING DEATH in my hand, the outcome may very well be different.


Rofl. So we're all ticking time bombs just waiting to explode into murderous rampages at the slightest provocation? You two sound like those religious people that say we need religion to keep us from killing each other.

I think your statements say more about your wacky, distorted views than anything else.

It's fascinating to see the leftist mind at work. And a little frightening...
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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by PsychoSerenity » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:18 pm

hadespussercats wrote:Instrument of Sheep-fucking Death?
Meh, it was close enough. :pardon:

I think I've just got bored of where the thread is going...
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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by Gallstones » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:34 am

I think it is logically fallacious to extrapolate from one's own imaginings regarding one's own temperament and insert assumptions based on those extrapolations into imagined scenarios and assert that those assumptions are generally a fact of all individuals.

I shall proffer an assumption of my own.
I think that people who have no weapons training--either for lack of interest or lack of opportunity--probably are more dangerous when they have weapons than is an individual who is trained. Reason being, the trained individual has not only been impressed by and indoctrinated into all the safety aspects, they are emotionally and intellectually more secure for being familiar with the weapons, how to handle them and have practice in their use. The training and hands on familiarity give them motor habit (muscle memory) and habit of mental focus that can effectively override emotion.

So, if you fear guns, fear yourself with guns--then don't touch them!
Let those who are trained and not afraid have them.
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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:58 am

Gallstones wrote:I think it is logically fallacious to extrapolate from one's own imaginings regarding one's own temperament and insert assumptions based on those extrapolations into imagined scenarios and assert that those assumptions are generally a fact of all individuals.

I shall proffer an assumption of my own.
I think that people who have no weapons training--either for lack of interest or lack of opportunity--probably are more dangerous when they have weapons than is an individual who is trained. Reason being, the trained individual has not only been impressed by and indoctrinated into all the safety aspects, they are emotionally and intellectually more secure for being familiar with the weapons, how to handle them and have practice in their use. The training and hands on familiarity give them motor habit (muscle memory) and habit of mental focus that can effectively override emotion.

So, if you fear guns, fear yourself with guns--then don't touch them!
Let those who are trained and not afraid have them.
That reminded me of the guy in San Diego who bought a 9mm and a box of ammo. He was very excited to finally get the weapon after the waiting period and promptly loaded the automatic in his car in the parking lot. He then dropped the piece on the floor of his car and bled to death before bystanders could get the locked sedan open.
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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by laklak » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:13 am

I can only speak to my own neighborhood, but of the 11 murders in our county last year, 8 occurred in the gang infested projects. Of the other three, one was apparently a robbery gone wrong at an ATM, and 2 were a murder suicide. This indicates to me that the vast majority of violent crime in our area is indeed gang related. None of the perps were concealed carry permit holders, BTW. 2 of the murders were British tourists that wandered into the ghetto. So I don't understand the contention that law abiding gun owners are a problem.

http://sarasota.patch.com/articles/mapp ... -s-murders
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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by Seth » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:45 am

tattuchu wrote:
MrJonno wrote:Forget in Seth world there are law abiding citizens and a completely different species called criminals also known as bad guys.

Bullshit of course all human beings are violent animals that are sometimes have their urges controlled by civilization but when that fails you control the tools they can use for their violence.

Also love the way 'gangs' are other people, gangs are lawyers, politicans, policemen, nurses, solders and the occassional member of the royal family getting completely wasted and into trouble
I've said similar. As if there are law-abiding citizens and criminals, and ne'er the 'twain shall meet, right? Fuck, put a gun in my hand and, with my temper, I can see myself becoming a criminal right quick. That's why I choose not to carry a gun. Seth's response to this was that I was a psychopath and that I should be locked up. For not carrying a gun, knowing my own limitations, and exercising caution accordingly, I should be locked up and the key thrown away :ddpan:
If you can see yourself becoming a criminal merely because you have a gun in your hand, then you are one of the most dangerous kinds of people that exist because you have extremely faulty impulse control and a "temper" that's a danger to everyone around you. You don't need a gun for your temper to turn you into a killer, all you need is a motive, a trigger, and a weapon, which can be anything from a brick or baseball bat to a knife or bottle.

People who have "tempers" they can't control are one of the threats that those of us who aren't insane, and who are able to control our tempers, need defensive firearms to protect us against. The guy with the chainsaw who lost his temper after being thrown out for smoking and came back with a chainsaw and attacked patrons is a classic example of exactly WHY I carry a gun all the time. Impulse control deficits and uncontrollable murderous rages don't make one a psychopath, but they are a clear and present danger to everyone else, who have a right to be armed in self defense should such a situation embroil them.

Those who cannot control their tempers who see themselves becoming killers merely because they have access to a weapon are dangerous, and should be hospitalized and treated until they are no longer a danger to others.

And the rest of us have a right to protect ourselves against those who are running at large.
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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by Seth » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:53 am

MrJonno wrote:Anyone can snap, lose your job come home with find your wife in bed with someone else or even just being unlucky genetically, we are all capable of acts of great evil
Speak for yourself.

That anyone "can" snap does not mean that everyone WILL snap, as is obvious by the fact that only a small percentage of humanity does so. Nor does the fact that some few people DO snap justify infringing on the rights of the vast majority of people who will never do so to protect themselves against those who do.

It is precisely those who might do so that the rest of us, who don't, have a right to be armed against.

And because it is impossible to predict which of the many people one meets in a day might snap, or when, or how they will do so, it's prudent for the rest of us to carry arms at all times, just in case it happens to us. Moreover, it's our absolute, natural, unalienable right to do so, a right which no government may legitimately strip from us, and which if it does, de-legitimizes the government and turns it into a tyranny that must be destroyed.
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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by Thumpalumpacus » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:07 am

I cotton to what Solzhenitsyn once wrote on the matter: "The line between good and evil runs down the middle of every man's heart."

Doing good is a conscious choice.
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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:20 am

Thumpalumpacus wrote:I cotton to what Solzhenitsyn once wrote on the matter: "The line between good and evil runs down the middle of every man's heart."
Commieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doing good is a conscious choice.
Socialisttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by amok » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:42 am

Gallstones wrote:I think it is logically fallacious to extrapolate from one's own imaginings regarding one's own temperament and insert assumptions based on those extrapolations into imagined scenarios and assert that those assumptions are generally a fact of all individuals.

I shall proffer an assumption of my own.
I think that people who have no weapons training--either for lack of interest or lack of opportunity--probably are more dangerous when they have weapons than is an individual who is trained. Reason being, the trained individual has not only been impressed by and indoctrinated into all the safety aspects, they are emotionally and intellectually more secure for being familiar with the weapons, how to handle them and have practice in their use. The training and hands on familiarity give them motor habit (muscle memory) and habit of mental focus that can effectively override emotion.

So, if you fear guns, fear yourself with guns--then don't touch them!
Let those who are trained and not afraid have them.
I agree with this post.

I'm a person who has no training or interest in firearms, and also sees no need for a firearm in my life here and now, but if for some reason I landed in a place where it would make sense to have one, I'd be a hazard for myself and everyone else (unless I had previously got proper training, of course).

I discussed this point elsewhere in talking about a citizen being able to take control either for themselves (mugging/attack type situation) or others (shooting rampage situation), and even WITH training, I can still see it going very wrong.

On the personal level, the only time I've been in the situation it was so sudden and unexpected (middle of the day, politely giving someone directions), that having a gun in my purse or pocket would have made not a bit of difference. I was down before even being aware I was in any danger, much less being able to take a gun out to protect myself. It's only speculation, of course, but it's possible that during the ensuing physical fight if I was concentrating on getting to a weapon, my assailant might have been able to take if from me, and thus been an ARMED assailant for the next person he attacked.

On an even more speculative level, I keep thinking about the reactions to the Norwegian mass shooting. Some people say if people on the island had been armed (leaving aside that most were underage in regard to firearms carrying?), fewer would have died. But, what I think about is not so much training in shooting, but legitimate confusion about who is the bad shooter, if suddenly a dozen or score of people had guns in their hands. After all, the shooter in Norway was disguised as a police officer, and one of his early victims was a real police officer who approached him, likely assuming they could unite in stopping the killings. Who do you shoot, in a crowd where many are holding/firing guns? A "police officer" holding a gun? Unless you were witness to the very first shooting(s), I don't see how you could determine if another person was the criminal or simply another citizen trying to stop the shooting.

This is not a rant against guns. I just don't see the logic in an armed population being much good in either of those situations.
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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by Gallstones » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:17 am

Seth wrote:
tattuchu wrote:
MrJonno wrote:Forget in Seth world there are law abiding citizens and a completely different species called criminals also known as bad guys.

Bullshit of course all human beings are violent animals that are sometimes have their urges controlled by civilization but when that fails you control the tools they can use for their violence.

Also love the way 'gangs' are other people, gangs are lawyers, politicans, policemen, nurses, solders and the occassional member of the royal family getting completely wasted and into trouble
I've said similar. As if there are law-abiding citizens and criminals, and ne'er the 'twain shall meet, right? Fuck, put a gun in my hand and, with my temper, I can see myself becoming a criminal right quick. That's why I choose not to carry a gun. Seth's response to this was that I was a psychopath and that I should be locked up. For not carrying a gun, knowing my own limitations, and exercising caution accordingly, I should be locked up and the key thrown away :ddpan:
If you can see yourself becoming a criminal merely because you have a gun in your hand, then you are one of the most dangerous kinds of people that exist because you have extremely faulty impulse control and a "temper" that's a danger to everyone around you. You don't need a gun for your temper to turn you into a killer, all you need is a motive, a trigger, and a weapon, which can be anything from a brick or baseball bat to a knife or bottle.

People who have "tempers" they can't control are one of the threats that those of us who aren't insane, and who are able to control our tempers, need defensive firearms to protect us against. The guy with the chainsaw who lost his temper after being thrown out for smoking and came back with a chainsaw and attacked patrons is a classic example of exactly WHY I carry a gun all the time. Impulse control deficits and uncontrollable murderous rages don't make one a psychopath, but they are a clear and present danger to everyone else, who have a right to be armed in self defense should such a situation embroil them.

Those who cannot control their tempers who see themselves becoming killers merely because they have access to a weapon are dangerous, and should be hospitalized and treated until they are no longer a danger to others.

And the rest of us have a right to protect ourselves against those who are running at large.

I think I already said this.
However, now that you have embellished the assertion... :tup:
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The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by Gallstones » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:36 am

Thumpalumpacus wrote:I cotton to what Solzhenitsyn once wrote on the matter: "The line between good and evil runs down the middle of every man's heart."

Doing good is a conscious choice.
I don't agree.
I don't have to consciously consider if, then consciously choose to do good.
I am impelled to do "good" because it feels like what I want to do; because it feels more pleasurable. It takes a betrayal, or an act of hostility against me to cause me to consider doing "bad".

I think there is an instinctive drive to be intraspecifically cooperative and it takes threat to then cause a person to instinctively be driven to respond to protect themselves and their loved ones and their in-group from threat. I think, that as social animals, our intrinsic drive is to bond, form alliances and be faithful and protective.
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Parenting with a .45

Post by Thumpalumpacus » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:11 am

Gallstones wrote:
Thumpalumpacus wrote:I cotton to what Solzhenitsyn once wrote on the matter: "The line between good and evil runs down the middle of every man's heart."

Doing good is a conscious choice.
I don't agree.
I don't have to consciously consider if, then consciously choose to do good.
I am impelled to do "good" because it feels like what I want to do; because it feels more pleasurable. It takes a betrayal, or an act of hostility against me to cause me to consider doing "bad".
Yes, that's why I wrote, "I cotton ... " I am speaking about myself and my experiences ... my opinion. I don't presume to speak for other people, particularly those I don't know outside the random Internet post.
I think there is an instinctive drive to be intraspecifically cooperative and it takes threat to then cause a person to instinctively be driven to respond to protect themselves and their loved ones and their in-group from threat. I think, that as social animals, our intrinsic drive is to bond, form alliances and be faithful and protective.
I doubt human behavior is so simple as to be instinctive when it comes to considerations of morality. I'm satisfied that human behavior is largely a result of environmental influences, and that emotional and moral proclivities aren't genetic.
these are things we think we know
these are feelings we might even share
these are thoughts we hide from ourselves
these are secrets we cannot lay bare.

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