California Taxpayer Protection Act of 2012

[Thumpalumpacus]

Regarding the difference in income across the Rio Grande, what has happened to the vast natural resources which Mexico has? How is it that the mismanagement of that country's natural wealth by corrupt officials devolves upon the American taxpayer?

Given Mexico's stringent illegal immigration laws, casting aspersions on Americans who support the same provisions here as "racist" is very suspect.

[Seth]

ye, Mai. Conservatives are, by definition, cowards and bigots. And usually proud of it.

And Socialists are, by definition, thieves and murderers, and always proud of it.

[Clinton Huxley]

ye, Mai. Conservatives are, by definition, cowards and bigots. And usually proud of it.

And Socialists are, by definition, thieves and murderers, and always proud of it.

Bah, I know you are a scaredy cat, Seth. Why else have all those firearms? You are terrified of humanity.

[Seth]

ye, Mai. Conservatives are, by definition, cowards and bigots. And usually proud of it.

And Socialists are, by definition, thieves and murderers, and always proud of it.

Bah, I know you are a scaredy cat, Seth. Why else have all those firearms? You are terrified of humanity.

No, I'm not terrified of anybody because I have firearms. Humanity doesn't frighten me precisely because I'm trained and armed to defend myself. Thus, I fear no one and am at peace with all except those who would harm me or others. Peace through strength and superior firepower is my mantra. Many of them, however, are terrified of me. Just look at poor MrJonno, who is so terrified of anyone with a firearm that he'd rather live next to a child molester.

[Warren Dew]

You then made baseless assumptions about these immigrants from your stories, and quite sadly, alll the worst ones... that they are essentially lazy, unmotivated, leechlike criminals.

I'm pretty sure you're the only one in this thread who has posted anything about illegal immigrants being "lazy, unmotivated, leechlike criminals".

[MrJonno]

No, I'm not terrified of anybody because I have firearms. Humanity doesn't frighten me precisely because I'm trained and armed to defend myself. Thus, I fear no one and am at peace with all except those who would harm me or others. Peace through strength and superior firepower is my mantra. Many of them, however, are terrified of me. Just look at poor MrJonno, who is so terrified of anyone with a firearm that he'd rather live next to a child molester.

Nah I would be terrified of Seth whether he had a gun or not

[maiforpeace]

You then made baseless assumptions about these immigrants from your stories, and quite sadly, alll the worst ones... that they are essentially lazy, unmotivated, leechlike criminals.

I'm pretty sure you're the only one in this thread who has posted anything about illegal immigrants being "lazy, unmotivated, leechlike criminals".

Just paraphrasing Warren...but fine, I'll agree with you. You have nothing else to respond to in that post? This is it?

Oh, the irony.

[
The United States simply cannot afford to take in all the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" any longer.

If they're yearning to breathe free, we can take them. If they're yearning to suckle on the government tit, then we can't.

[Well, most of the rest of us don't. We want our tax dollars spent on helping American citizens in need. Illegal aliens need to be rounded up and deported whenever they are caught, and our borders need to be secured so that they can't easily get back in because they don't have a right to be here and they are stealing from everyone. They need to apply and wait their turn if they want to come here, and do it legally.

I have a friend who works with illegal immigrants held in detention - she shared some pretty awful statistics with me about what goes on there, it's no less civilized or humane than how we treat the prisoners of Guantanamo. Let me get back to you with those stats.

Sucks to be a criminal. But I agree, holding illegals in detention is a bad idea. It's costly and inefficient. The best thing to do is to change the law to disallow any appeals at all by an illegal while they are still in the country. Hook 'em, book 'em, and kick 'em out, all within a few hours or days at most.

[Warren Dew]

Just paraphrasing Warren...but fine, I'll agree with you. You have nothing else to respond to in that post? This is it?

I'll be happy to give you a CES style point by point response if that's what you really want.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

Notice how right-wingers somehow presume to speak on behalf of all taxpayers. Just like with the so-called "TaxPayers' Alliance" over here.

The cool thing is that if you don't like the fact that your government doesn't have enough money to fund its social welfare programs, you, like Warren Buffet, can simply send more of your paycheck to the government to make up for the deficit. You can send as much as you like, even 100 percent of your income, to help the poor. Nobody's going to stop you, but then again nobody's going to force you to do so.

You, however, have no compunctions about forcing other people to pay more because of YOUR sense of entitlement, do you?

Pretty damned selfish, but then again that's what socialism is all about, selfishness.

What the hell does that crap have to do with what I posted? I was pointing out the arrogant presumption of extreme right-wingers in proclaiming themselves spokespeople for a so-called "silent majority". How dare they! On what evidence do they do this when any "silent majority" out there that may-or-may-not exist is, by definition, silent?

You could on just as much (or rather, little) evidence invoke "silent majority" support for just about any political or economic position you like.


The use of the word "taxpayer" to implicitly mean "libertarian" is the lowest form of rhetorical sewage - it's an appeal to argumentum ad populum without even bothering to provide evidence for the "populum" bit.

[Coito ergo sum]

So, to conclude:-

A) the global trading system is perfect
B) idealism must be crushed whenever it rears its silly head
C) Americans are just more important than anyone else.

That's about as logical as:

A) The global trading system must be changed, but it doesn't matter to what. Just change it. Anything is better.
B) Practical concerns like "if you suggest something different, please describe what it is that you suggest," are irrelevant because, well, see A.
C) Europeans are just more enlightened and advanced than anyone else, particular Americans.

[Clinton Huxley]

So, to conclude:-

A) the global trading system is perfect
B) idealism must be crushed whenever it rears its silly head
C) Americans are just more important than anyone else.

That's about as logical as:

A) The global trading system must be changed, but it doesn't matter to what. Just change it. Anything is better.
B) Practical concerns like "if you suggest something different, please describe what it is that you suggest," are irrelevant because, well, see A.
C) Europeans are just more enlightened and advanced than anyone else, particular Americans.

Oh, CES, there really is no hope for you.

[Ronja]

Ani posted this in another thread recently, but I think it is relevant to this discussion, too:

This is good.

[Coito ergo sum]

A number of you told personal stories about your own or their loved ones immigration experience...I read them all, and each story was different - I appreciate what you all had to go through. But those stories say absolutely nothing about the illegal immigrants that are the subject of this discussion.

Then the same goes for you and your anecdotes.

.
You then made baseless assumptions about these immigrants from your stories, and quite sadly, alll the worst ones... that they are essentially lazy, unmotivated, leechlike criminals. What kind of reasoning is that? It's like saying that the children who aren't learning must lazy and stupid, since all the other ones are learning.

If you're including me in that, please apologize. I said EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. I said that I thought they were generally hard working, honest and industrious, and often even more patriotic than Americans generally are.

I had some personal stories to tell, about these immigrants.

And, those stories only apply to the immigrants you encounter. If my stories about the illegal immigrants I encounter are irrelevant to the larger picture, then so are yours. Your anecdote is not more relevant than mine, or anyone else's, except that they represent your view of the people you encountered.

I shared a link to a non profit that works with these people that tells many stories about these people. And finally I provided a Pew report that debunks all of the negative stereotyping you pulled out of thin air and and explains why they are all entering illegally. You didn't even give any of that a nod. So I can only assume you didn't bother to read it, or you did and chose to ignore it.

Who are you referring to? I am not sure what I said that you think you debunked. Maybe you're not referring to me, but you and I had an exchange on the topic. Are you referring to someone who propagated negative stereotypes of immigrants, and are you including me in that?

All that does is tell me you don't care to know, and don't know who these people really are. Which doesn't give you much authority to know what should be done about them frankly.

If they are prevented from getting a license, do you think that will stop them from driving, given that no visa hasn't stopped them from entering illegally? That's not protecting us, it's putting us in harm's way, adding untested drivers to the roads we all share.

Untested drivers? You think most of them don't drive in their home countries? You think having a card with you're picture on it makes other people safer? It really doesn't.

Taking away a drunk driver's license doesn't prevent him from driving or driving drunk, as repeat offender stats will show. Yet we still deprive them of a drivers license.

And the cost to taxpayers...it's not nearly as high as conservatives have misinformed you it is... They include legal immigrants in their numbers.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-o ... mmigrants/

It's sadly typical of conservatives to get support through fearmongering and misinformation. This fear breeds the intolerance and self righteousness that some are more deserving than others for no other reason than luck. Introducing this act during a recession, when sympathy and empathy for those less fortunate is at its lowest, that's some masterful manipulation.

Your attack post was directed generally, at all those in agreement with this proposed law. Yet, not everyone did so for the same reasons. I did not say, for example, nor do I recall anyone else posting here saying, that the overblown stats on the cost of immigration were true. Who did that? Or, are you attributing some other statistics on anyone who agrees with the law.

Also, some non-conservatives, including me, are in favor of that law.

Oh, btw, did you know that illegal immigration has been on the decline?

Yes. I am aware of that.

All I am doing is asking you to do something you have probably told your children to do: to share, play nicely with others, especially with those less fortunate. Why not do as I say, AND do as I do. Be a true role model. Why not encourage the best in yourself? Can you not put yourself in these people's shoes, and really think about what the consequences that such an act will have on them? Is the measly amount that you will save in taxes worth piling more misery, fear and shame on people that already suffer enough fear and shame as it is?

That's not what you're asking us to do, Mai. You're asking us to support violation of the law. You're asking us to insult legal immigrants, who the US accepts in fantastically high numbers, consistently, and with open arms. You're asking us to teach our children that obedience to the law is not required if you can get around it. Don't like the law - don't want to follow proper procedure - don't worry about it. Those laws are only for the people who feel like obeying them. If you sneak around it, and paint a sympathetic picture, you'll be given special treatment. That's not sharing, Mai.

Mai - this post of yours is fantastically insulting. You lump everyone in favor of this kind of law in with those who do so for racist reasons, or because they denigrate illegal or even legal immigrants as "lazy" or otherwise bad in some way. I think that's total bullshit.

[Coito ergo sum]

ye, Mai. Conservatives are, by definition, cowards and bigots. And usually proud of it.

What's the law in the UK, Hux? Everyone from other countries are allowed in without proper documentation? No immigration laws there? If someone does sneak into the UK illegally, can the police check their immigration status? And, if so, what happens? Are they allowed to stay?

Enlighten us.

[Coito ergo sum]

You then made baseless assumptions about these immigrants from your stories, and quite sadly, alll the worst ones... that they are essentially lazy, unmotivated, leechlike criminals.

I'm pretty sure you're the only one in this thread who has posted anything about illegal immigrants being "lazy, unmotivated, leechlike criminals".

This. +1.