California Taxpayer Protection Act of 2012

[maiforpeace]

California Conservatives Propose 2012 Initiative to Limit Services to Illegal Immigrants

What a piece of garbage. And the title of the initiative? Talk about a shit sandwich made with Wonder bread.

http://www.lao.ca.gov/ballot/2011/110438.pdf

[Svartalf]

First link is forbidden, second is toomuch legalese for my ADD state, could I have a summary, pretty please?

[maiforpeace]

First link is forbidden, second is toomuch legalese for my ADD state, could I have a summary, pretty please?

Here's the text for the forbidden link:

The initiative is called the California Taxpayer Protection Act of 2012.

Conservative activists have submitted an initiative proposal targeting illegal immigration by imposing limits on financial aid and Medi-Cal benefits while requiring California law enforcement to work with federal immigration officials.

State Attorney General Kamala Harris, who is responsible for preparing ballot language, received the proposal Monday from former state GOP chairman Tirso Del Junco, San Diego Republican Ted Hilton and Concord Republican Bill Siler. Proponents are calling it the “California Taxpayer Protection Act of 2012.”

Hilton and Siler pursued a similar measure in 2009 but failed to gather enough signatures.

The initiative if it qualifies for the ballot would do among other things:

Prohibit undocumented immigrants from receiving public financial aid in California
Block California Driver’s Licenses for illegal immigrants
Require fingerprinting for Medi-Cal pregnancy services with fingerprint reports relayed to the federal Department of Homeland Security
Require that law enforcement officials transfer people they arrest to federal custody if those individuals have an “immigration detainer.”

You can read the initiative here (PDF file).

My guess that if the initiative gathers the requisite signatures that it would pass at the ballot box.

California voters are not too happy with Jerry Brown signing the California Dream Act allowing illegal immigrants in some instances receiving subsidized tuition and financial aid to attend California state Community Colleges, State Colleges and the University of California.

[Coito ergo sum]

Well, based on that article:

Prohibit undocumented immigrants from receiving public financial aid in California - for the most part, I would say that's a good idea. I wouldn't expect Mexico to extend me welfare if I walk across the border and take up residence there without permission. And, in fact, Mexico does not provide public financial aid to undocumented immigrants. Rather, if they find you, you get arrested, and they summarily deport you.

Block California Driver’s Licenses for illegal immigrants - another one that I don't have a problem with. Here in Florida, to get a drivers license you have to prove residency in Florida and that you 're lawfully in the country. I had to bring my passport and multiple pieces of evidence that I live in Florida, and they scan the documents into their system. Why not? Why ought illegal immigrants be issued State issued drivers licenses?

Require fingerprinting for Medi-Cal pregnancy services with fingerprint reports relayed to the federal Department of Homeland Security - Sounds pretty resasonable to me - you're getting state benefits, and they're going to send your info to DHS Immigration - if you're not hear legally, oughtn't you get a deportation/removal notice? That is the law, after all. You get a hearing and everything before they send you home - you're entitled to a lawyer, all that.

Require that law enforcement officials transfer people they arrest to federal custody if those individuals have an “immigration detainer.” -- That makes perfect sense, and I can't see why anyone would oppose it. An "immigration detainer" is an official request from Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to another law enforcement agency —such as a state or local jail —that they notify ICE prior to releasing an individual from local custody so that ICE can arrange to take over custody. So, if the description is correct, then the California law would simply be requiring the local law enforcement/jail to comply with an issued immigration detainer from ICE. ICE issued a detainer -- the jail is going to release an illegal immigrant but sees the detainer - the new law would require that the jail make sure the detainee is handed over to ICE on the federal immigration detainer.

What about that is so wrong?

California voters are not too happy with Jerry Brown signing the California Dream Act allowing illegal immigrants in some instances receiving subsidized tuition and financial aid to attend California state Community Colleges, State Colleges and the University of California: I wouldn't be either, and I don't know a single legal immigrant that would be happy with that either. My peer, family and friend group is immigrant heavy. My parents are immigrants. I have extended family that are immigrants. My wife is an immigrant. I am first generation. She has family members who are immigrants. We go out on the weekends with a peer-group that includes dozens of immigrants, some of which I know for a fact, through their own admissions and otherwise, are illegally here. I know people who have fraudulent "marriages" to get green cards. I know people who work here illegally under false documentation, etc. When the topic comes up among legal immigrants, I can tell you that they are often harder on illegal immigrants that we native born citizens are. I know my wife is. She is severely pissed off by the folks who run under the table, avail themselves of free services, file false applications for welfare and other benefits. You're damn right she'd be pissed off if Florida decided to give free college to illegals now. My parents are the same way. They waited in line. They got the proper paperwork. They got jobs, and they paid taxes. Now it's a problem for others to do the same?

[maiforpeace]

CES, didn't you just make an exception for the children of undocumented workers who came here illegally through no fault of their own in the other thread? So, what should happen to them? Send them back to Mexico, even though they are basically Americans, in culture and language?

[Coito ergo sum]

CES, didn't you just make an exception for the children of undocumented workers who came here illegally through no fault of their own in the other thread?

I expressed understanding that it's not their fault, if they are brought here involuntarily.

So, what should happen to them? Send them back to Mexico, even though they are basically Americans, in culture and language?

Nope. I believe in a sensible immigration practice.

But, remember, the law you're complaining about is not "sending them back to Mexico." It's denial of a drivers license, for example. Fuck, in Florida, a person who is from Georgia can't legally get a Florida drivers license unless he or she is legally domiciled here. American citizens have to prove they legally reside here in Florida. And, why not? If they live in Georgia, get a Georgia drivers license. If you live in Mexico, get a Mexican drivers license. Kids under 17 in California generally can't get drivers licenses anyway, so it doesn't relate to most children.

What I would do is have an immigration process for them, in the federal system, that will review their case and decide if they can get a visa or green card. It's not fair that the federal government shirk this responsibility. The feds claim exclusive jurisdiction over immigration, but then they won't do anything about it. The situation can be addressed by statute.

The proposed California law would result in cutting off benefits to illegals. Good. Then file an application to the immigration service, and apply to be legal. Those that aren't eligible SHOULD go home. Every other industrialized country does that. This isn't something peculiar to the US. The US has among the most open borders in the world, and we let in a million new permanent residents each year, and naturalize a million citizens a year. And, something like 60 million people a year get temporary visas or are admitted without a visa temporarily.

There should certainly be a means, however, for those that have lived here most of their lives who came here involuntarily to be given residence here, and work permits and social security numbers.

[Coito ergo sum]

CES, didn't you just make an exception for the children of undocumented workers who came here illegally through no fault of their own in the other thread? So, what should happen to them? Send them back to Mexico, even though they are basically Americans, in culture and language?

And, as I have answered your question directly and straightforwardly.

What about those actual proposals listed is so wrong? Why?

Remember, you described it colorfully as "What a piece of garbage. And the title of the initiative? Talk about a shit sandwich made with Wonder bread."

I went through the points one by one and addressed why they seem pretty reasonable to me. I'm certainly open to the other view, and yours is pretty extreme here - "piece of garbage." I would think that something about the requirements in the law would be a remarkable injustice. Which parts of it are that?

[Drewish]

Because "his heart rejects it!" aka he's been brainwashed into thinking that not giving free shit to illegal immigrants is racist.

[Coito ergo sum]

Here, for example -- check out the "immigration detainer" provision: http://ag.ca.gov/cms_attachments/initia ... ion%29.pdf on page 4 of that pdf document, chapter 3.5. It's very short. When a law enforcement agency holding a person is NOTIFIED that the person is unlawfully present in the country, the jail or the police with custody of the person has to contact homeland security and find out if the person is to be turned over to the immigration authorities. And, if the person is to be turned over, then the state law enforcement officials will turn the person over to the federal authorities.

That's it - that's it for that "immigration detainer" provision.

Is that "garbage?" "Shit?"

I mean -- really?

That's like saying that if I'm arrested for drunk driving, and there is a federal warrant out for my arrest that the state officials should just let me go, and not hand me over to the feds.

[Seth]

CES, didn't you just make an exception for the children of undocumented workers who came here illegally through no fault of their own in the other thread? So, what should happen to them? Send them back to Mexico, even though they are basically Americans, in culture and language?

Where were they born? If in the US, they are US citizens. If elsewhere, they are illegal aliens and they have no right to be here.

Damned right send them back.

Or at least deny them public welfare benefits.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I don't have a problem with this. If someone's first act even as they enter this country is to break our laws, I'm not real big on them being here. Where they're found, they should be sent back.

[Warren Dew]

Well, based on that article:

Prohibit undocumented immigrants from receiving public financial aid in California - for the most part, I would say that's a good idea. I wouldn't expect Mexico to extend me welfare if I walk across the border and take up residence there without permission. And, in fact, Mexico does not provide public financial aid to undocumented immigrants. Rather, if they find you, you get arrested, and they summarily deport you.

Block California Driver’s Licenses for illegal immigrants - another one that I don't have a problem with. Here in Florida, to get a drivers license you have to prove residency in Florida and that you 're lawfully in the country. I had to bring my passport and multiple pieces of evidence that I live in Florida, and they scan the documents into their system. Why not? Why ought illegal immigrants be issued State issued drivers licenses?

Require fingerprinting for Medi-Cal pregnancy services with fingerprint reports relayed to the federal Department of Homeland Security - Sounds pretty resasonable to me - you're getting state benefits, and they're going to send your info to DHS Immigration - if you're not hear legally, oughtn't you get a deportation/removal notice? That is the law, after all. You get a hearing and everything before they send you home - you're entitled to a lawyer, all that.

Require that law enforcement officials transfer people they arrest to federal custody if those individuals have an “immigration detainer.” -- That makes perfect sense, and I can't see why anyone would oppose it. An "immigration detainer" is an official request from Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to another law enforcement agency —such as a state or local jail —that they notify ICE prior to releasing an individual from local custody so that ICE can arrange to take over custody. So, if the description is correct, then the California law would simply be requiring the local law enforcement/jail to comply with an issued immigration detainer from ICE. ICE issued a detainer -- the jail is going to release an illegal immigrant but sees the detainer - the new law would require that the jail make sure the detainee is handed over to ICE on the federal immigration detainer.

What about that is so wrong?

California voters are not too happy with Jerry Brown signing the California Dream Act allowing illegal immigrants in some instances receiving subsidized tuition and financial aid to attend California state Community Colleges, State Colleges and the University of California: I wouldn't be either, and I don't know a single legal immigrant that would be happy with that either. My peer, family and friend group is immigrant heavy. My parents are immigrants. I have extended family that are immigrants. My wife is an immigrant. I am first generation. She has family members who are immigrants. We go out on the weekends with a peer-group that includes dozens of immigrants, some of which I know for a fact, through their own admissions and otherwise, are illegally here. I know people who have fraudulent "marriages" to get green cards. I know people who work here illegally under false documentation, etc. When the topic comes up among legal immigrants, I can tell you that they are often harder on illegal immigrants that we native born citizens are. I know my wife is. She is severely pissed off by the folks who run under the table, avail themselves of free services, file false applications for welfare and other benefits. You're damn right she'd be pissed off if Florida decided to give free college to illegals now. My parents are the same way. They waited in line. They got the proper paperwork. They got jobs, and they paid taxes. Now it's a problem for others to do the same?

Exactly.

A lot of people seem to forget that the phrase "illegal immigrant" includes the word "illegal". If you want to immigrate to the U.S., there are plenty of ways to do it legally.

CES, didn't you just make an exception for the children of undocumented workers who came here illegally through no fault of their own in the other thread? So, what should happen to them? Send them back to Mexico, even though they are basically Americans, in culture and language?

To the contrary, most of them grow up in barrios learning to speak Spanish, not English. They are best off staying with their parents, including when the parents are deported.

[kiki5711]

What I don't understand is if a child is brought here let's say about 5 yrs of age, why then15 yrs later they still haven't taken any steps to become a legal citizen and still expect the same benefits as a legal immigrant?

When my family came here from Croatia it took about 5 yrs before we came to US to get all the legal paperwork done, and when we came here we already had our green cards. I don't know what it's called now. All of us, not just our parents.

[Coito ergo sum]

It's still called a green card.

I'm still wondering what all is "garbage" and "shit" about this law. Why is it wrong for taxpayers to be miffed at having to pay for the college educations of illegal aliens? Why is it wrong for an illegal immigrant from Germany to be denied a drivers license?

[maiforpeace]

What I don't understand is if a child is brought here let's say about 5 yrs of age, why then15 yrs later they still haven't taken any steps to become a legal citizen and still expect the same benefits as a legal immigrant?

When my family came here from Croatia it took about 5 yrs before we came to US to get all the legal paperwork done, and when we came here we already had our green cards. I don't know what it's called now. All of us, not just our parents.

If you came here with green cards, you came legally. It's much easier to get naturalized if you have a green card.

I had a green card when I arrived in 1957. I lost it....that's all. It took over 15 years for me to first get it replaced, then get naturalized - they wouldn't allow me to apply for naturalization until I had a physical green card. I had to get two congresspeople involved. At least, since 9/11, the BCIS has become of the most inefficient and cumbersome agencies in the US. It is nothing like the agency it was when you and I entered the US. I wonder, how much did it really cost, in taxpayer dollars to get me naturalized. (not to mention the exorbinant fees that I had to pay, twice in some instances since due to their inefficiency applications elapsed and I had to re-apply and pay again)

Did you have the presence of mind at 15 to take yourself to the DMV office to get your driver's license? If you did, I'd be impressed.

Also, back in your day, you didn't need identification to enter an immigration office - now you do, so if an illegal child were to be accompanied by their illegal parent, the parent would be arrested.
So, you want to make yourself legal, how do you do it if you don't have identification like a drivers license?

So, let's say they are 20 and adult - remember, they don't have a drivers license or passport. So, somehow, you get in to the office, probably only with the intervention of your local congressperson. When you apply for citizenship, one usually gives an address, you have to identify who your parents are, you have to swear you haven't done anything illegal - most young people are afraid to apply for fear they will bust their parents.

So, to answer your questions CES - some which have already done - I think it a bigger waste of both my California and Federal taxpayer dollars to enforce everything that this act is saying it will - I would much rather see my money spent on educating someone who is interested in becoming educated, someone who needs health care, than on the congresspeople who must get involved for special cases to naturalize and get green cards for illegal immigrants, the cost to our police at the cost of real security, and the cost to the BCIS to employ the security tactics to oust illegal aliens out of the country.