Libertarianism

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Warren Dew
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Warren Dew » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:09 am

Gawdzilla wrote:Yep, we won, at a terrible price. And it took until August, 1945. If we had the trained men to invade Europe in 1943 the war would have been over much quicker, and perhaps less of Eastern Europe would have fallen to the Soviets.
1. We did invade Europe in 1943. Or doesn't your definition of Europe include Italy?

2. Part of the "terrible price" was the rationing, reduced civil liberties, and other hardship at home in the U.S. Yet your strategy would be to endure that hardship all the time in order to have a huge standing army at all times. And you ignore the other problem with large standing armies - in practice, they always lead to military adventurism as leaders are inevitably tempted into using them.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Robert_S » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:12 am

Warren Dew wrote:
andrewclunn wrote:As somebody who used to be a huge Ayn Rand fan (and then came to the conclusion that she wasn't violent enough), I will admit that under Laissez Faire system the poor would suffer and die.
Do you think the concept of "working poor" is a myth, then? I don't. If nothing else, there are some people who refuse to force taxpayers to give them money, and choose to work for the small amounts they can get even though they're eligible for government assistance.

There's also such a thing as private charity.
andrewclunn wrote:People are not all created equal, there is no such thing as "the soul," and the world has little need for more unskilled manual laborers.
I think that actually, there would be a substantially higher demand for manual laborers if the unskilled weren't discouraged from working by the welfare system.
I've held down a job while living in a car before. :awesanta:

Then I lived in a stupidly crowded apartment. Then I left the SF Bay Area.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:06 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:Yep, we won, at a terrible price. And it took until August, 1945. If we had the trained men to invade Europe in 1943 the war would have been over much quicker, and perhaps less of Eastern Europe would have fallen to the Soviets.
1. We did invade Europe in 1943. Or doesn't your definition of Europe include Italy?
And we never got out of Italy.
2. Part of the "terrible price" was the rationing, reduced civil liberties, and other hardship at home in the U.S. Yet your strategy would be to endure that hardship all the time in order to have a huge standing army at all times. And you ignore the other problem with large standing armies - in practice, they always lead to military adventurism as leaders are inevitably tempted into using them.
No, I don't ignore them, unlike you I do learn from history, and those things you mention were the result of a weak US being attacked by another country.

You still have to be ready to defend your country at a minimum, and that takes trained troops and enough of them. It may be that we're not able to do that now, with the army we have.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Drewish » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:13 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:No, I don't ignore them, unlike you I do learn from history
Can we avoid stuff like that? it doesn't actually make a point, but is sort of a personal jab. Just saying.
Last edited by Drewish on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Jay G » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:21 pm

andrewclunn wrote:[quote="Gawdzilla"No, I don't ignore them, unlike you I do learn from history
Can we avoid stuff like that? it doesn't actually make a point, but is sort of a personal jab. Just saying.[/quote]

Who would make a personal jab at such a good-looking person?
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by amused » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:27 pm

Yeah, and what if you missed and hit that lovely face next to his?

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:07 pm

andrewclunn wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:No, I don't ignore them, unlike you I do learn from history
Can we avoid stuff like that? it doesn't actually make a point, but is sort of a personal jab. Just saying.
You miss my point. Libertarians don't learn from history, so they keep trying to make the same mistakes over and over again. If that upsets you do a personal inventory.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Jay G » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:29 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
andrewclunn wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:No, I don't ignore them, unlike you I do learn from history
Can we avoid stuff like that? it doesn't actually make a point, but is sort of a personal jab. Just saying.
You miss my point. Libertarians don't learn from history, so they keep trying to make the same mistakes over and over again. If that upsets you do a personal inventory.

You can't win this argument because you can't prove to somebody who thinks as he does that we WOULD be less safe with an armed force as he sees it. The best you can do, as you have done, is to use the past as a demonstration, but he will always counter by saying that the past says nothing about what will happen in the future.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Drewish » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:12 pm

Well duh. History is not a science. That's obvious. Causality is what matters. If proof simply requires identifying corollary trends at some point in history and extrapolating them to the present day, then we can simultaneously 'prove' opposing views. You guys need to up your game, this isn't the least bit challenging.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Seth » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:52 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:Timely - article by George Monbiot in the Guardian the other day. I'd broadly agree with it. The "freedom" pushee by libertarian policy groups is the freedom of big business and the rich to exploit the poor, without let or hindrance.
It's a completely nonsensical strawman representation of Libertarianism with almost no connection to the reality of Libertarian philosophy. It's just another iteration of the Marxist Big Lie: create false images of your enemy and keep repeating the lies till they become the received truth by the proletariat.

It's so full of utter bullshit about what Libertarians believe that I'm not going to bother debunking it, I'm going to address some of the legitimate questions in the OP instead.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Warren Dew » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:31 pm

andrewclunn wrote:Can we avoid stuff like that? it doesn't actually make a point, but is sort of a personal jab. Just saying.
The best way to avoid it is just to ignore it.

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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:20 pm

Jay G wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
andrewclunn wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:No, I don't ignore them, unlike you I do learn from history
Can we avoid stuff like that? it doesn't actually make a point, but is sort of a personal jab. Just saying.
You miss my point. Libertarians don't learn from history, so they keep trying to make the same mistakes over and over again. If that upsets you do a personal inventory.

You can't win this argument because you can't prove to somebody who thinks as he does that we WOULD be less safe with an armed force as he sees it. The best you can do, as you have done, is to use the past as a demonstration, but he will always counter by saying that the past says nothing about what will happen in the future.
Paging Santayana. :fp:
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:21 pm

andrewclunn wrote:Well duh. History is not a science. That's obvious. Causality is what matters. If proof simply requires identifying corollary trends at some point in history and extrapolating them to the present day, then we can simultaneously 'prove' opposing views. You guys need to up your game, this isn't the least bit challenging.
So, you have nothing, and posted it. Well done, that man! :tup:
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Seth » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:23 pm

The canards and lies about Libertarianism seen here are common ones perpetrated by collectivists who cannot abide the notion of individual liberty and are jealous and covetous of what others have.

But there are some actual bedrock principles of Libertarianism that put paid to the lies of collectivists, so I’m going to touch on some of them as related to the OP.
Woodbutcher wrote:I'm interested in the premise of individual freedom to choose my course through life according to what I see is the best approach, avoiding harm to others to the best of my ability, and helping others along without giving some a free ride. Too often there are people who expect special consideration. What controls does a Libertarian society put in existence to give equal justice to all without prejudice? What about healthcare to all? I think a lot of our money is wasted on needless expense by people with fictitious complaints. Who would decide the need?
The core principles of Libertarianism (as I see it) include: The right to individual life, liberty and freedom of one's life to the highest degree possible consistent with ordered liberty for all; the right to acquire, own and dispose of property without interference by the government or others; the right to engage in voluntary associations (and dis-associations), including voluntary, binding commercial associations (contracts), free of centralized or government attempts to pick and choose economic winners and losers in the free market; and the right to self-defense (both individually and collectively by mutual agreement or contract) in protection of one's rights as against anyone, including government, that seeks to infringe upon those rights.

The general obligations of Libertarianism are not to initiate force or fraud against another; to abide by all agreements and contracts which one has voluntarily entered into; to be responsible for one's own life, needs and happiness; and to accept full responsibility for the consequences of one's own actions. This is a simple statement, but the exact meaning of "force" and "fraud" are not at all simplistic in their application.

Libertarianism relies upon aspects of human nature as well, including charity, altruism, honesty, and rational self-interest, to make society function properly and provide for the needy.

Libertarianism rejects the coercive force of government in the marketplace, and as applied to individual conduct except where the individual's own actions constitute an initiation of force or fraud against another that activates the right to self-defense or, in the case of government, defense of the rights individuals who make up the community on their behalf.

Instead, Libertarianism relies on voluntary cooperation and consent in mutual rational self-interest to accomplish those social goals that keep society running smoothly and provide for those who are in need.

In essence, Libertarianism accepts the truth that the individual alone has the right to sovereign control of his own life and is responsible for both fulfilling his own needs and being responsible for the consequences of his actions, so long as that sovereign exercise of one's rights does not export harm (force) or perpetrate fraud on others.

Libertarianism requires that government be primarily the exercise of the police power, which is to be used to enforce fair dealing and punish fraud and force, and to protect the community against common enemies like fire, communicable disease, and foreign invasion.

Libertarianism holds that it is NOT a legitimate function of government to provide social welfare or entitlements to anyone when those benefits are obtained through the coercive force of government or through seizure and redistribution of the property of others against their will.

Libertarianism insists that all levels of what government exists (which should be a little as possible), exists and are empowered only at the most local level possible, given the particular authority being exercised. Local government authority is preferable to county authority. County authority is better than state authority. State authority is better than regional authority. Regional authority is better than federal authority. All reasonable and necessary powers of government should always be devolved to the level of government that is the smallest, most local, most responsive and accountable to the people of the community affected by the exercise of power by government. This local, highly-dispersed model of government is intended to prevent tyranny and the oppression of the majority by keeping decision-making and government force as local and close to those who authorize the exercise of such powers, so that those powers can be revoked and government controlled or eliminated if it steps beyond its proper role.

Thus, for example, local and state militias are preferable to a large standing federal army. The federal authority over the military should be only for the purposes of command and control in time of actual, Congressionally-declared war ONLY, and the only structure and personnel provided by the federal government would be command-level officers, not personnel or equipment. The states would be responsible for arming and training their respective militias, not the federal government, and those troops would only be available to the federal government upon a formal declaration of war by Congress.

All state militias must of course be entirely volunteer forces, as conscription is not permitted by Libertarian philosophy because it disparages the individual right to life, liberty and property.

Government has no legitimate authority to redistributing property from one person to another, regardless of the form of exaction or bestowing of benefit, absent the express consent of both parties to the transfer of property.

Government does have a legitimate role in providing services in a coordinated manner to those who voluntarily agree to pay for those services, but government has no authority to levy taxes or seize property in order provide services that the individual does not voluntarily choose to partake of.

Those are some of the principles I espouse, and now I'll leave it to others to present scenarios that might concern them so we can analyze how Libertarianism might deal with such situations.
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Re: Libertarianism

Post by Seth » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:28 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:Good find. I would call such behavior "Sethical"
And you'd be an ignorant fuckwit if you did.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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