Catholic church at it again. This time Holland.

[hadespussercats]

There's always a place for Awesomeface Cat.

[BrettA]

This time Canada, too. I find this one funny in a sick sort of way... Excerpt from today's CBC News - a psychiatrist seems to be nitpicking:

Former Catholic bishop not a pedophile, court hears

..."Bradford said Lahey has a homosexual interest in adolescent males — aged 14 to 17 — and young men, as well as sadomasochistic interests.

But, he said, a pedophile is someone who is attracted to children under age 13 for more than six months."

Keep porn and torture pics of a 13 year, 11 month and ~30 day year old and you're a pedophile, but not the next day - who the fuck can tell the difference?

[JimC]

As far as I know there has been no accussations of any organisation even 1/100th the size of the Catholic church covering up sexual abuse. Thats what makes the Church evil not individual cases of abuse but the efforts to cover it up

Yes, there has. First and foremost among them are the public schools in the US, which are absolutely stuffed with child molesters who are, in fact, concealed and moved around in places precisely to avoid scandal.

Then there's the splinter Mormons, the Moonies, the Scientologists, the Rajneesh cult, the Boy Scouts and I'm sure many other large organizations where children are present.

So, your ignorance of the magnitude of the problem is not really much of an argument.

Anything to deflect attention from your defence of kiddy fiddler priests and their oh so important church...

What is it, are you a wannabe bishop in the closet? Destined to wear the purple? In love with church incense? Got a secret crush on Mary?

So where are all the investigative commisions on the organisations you mentioned? Where is the evidence of systematic cover-ups managed by a powerful hierarchy? Whare is your evidence of "the public schools in the US, which are absolutely stuffed with child molesters"? We all know you have a libertarian hard-on for public school teachers, the evil socialist fucks...

Got nothing, so shut the fuck up, and stop defending an organisation that fosters and harbours child molestors...

And stop making accusations about me which are completely out of proportion to my criticisms of you. At no stage have I said you are a child molestor, or a direct supporter of the right to molest children. All I allege is that your absurd politics and unreasoning hatred of the atheist position has lead you to defend the undefensible...

And I probably know and respect more catholics than you have ever met. So go fuck yourself!

[Seth]

Hm? How is the Catholic church an "illegitimate authority?" First, today it's entirely voluntary. Second, in the deep past (and I don't accept the Wayback Machine fallacy) it was a government as well as a church in some places and at some times. You might not like that form of government, but that's no different than objecting to Capitalism or Socialism. People choose to be members of the church, so the church's authority over them is not "illegitimate" in the least because they consent to it.

No I don't accept your wayback machine fallacy either. You are quite right it was a government as well as a church, in most of Europe, for quite a long time. Its authority did not come from the voluntary acceptance of the faith, but by torture, murder and fear, by private armies and eradication of many groups who contradicted their version of Christianity, by indoctrination, using priests as secret police and blackmailers. Sure, much like every other government has done without the consent of the people.

Yup. That was then, this is now. It's you who is engaging the Wayback Machine. What happened a thousand years ago is beyond irrelevant.

Today, the church is entirely voluntary, and members submit to its authority by their free choice, and a good many of them simply ignore the parts of Catholicism they don't agree with. They are called "Cafeteria Catholics" by those who adhere more rigidly to church doctrine. But it's still entirely voluntary, and no priest, bishop, archbishop or the Pope can (or does) force anyone to worship, obey, come to church, avoid abortion, not use condoms or any of a thousand other things the church RECOMMENDS people not do if they wish to live in harmony with what the church claims is harmony with God's will.

Next, I suppose you will bring up children, and argue that they are being involuntarily indoctrinated and forced to do something. This may be true in some respects, but it's done by the parents, and the church does not accept children as members, or allow them to take Communion until after they are Confirmed, which means that they have learned enough about the church to make their own choice to join or not join the church. Is there pressure from the parents? Sure, but that's the right of the parents to determine in what faith, if any, their children are raised, which is far preferable to the State taking custody of children and raising them in an atmosphere of Marxist or Socialist indoctrination and propaganda. But the church does not require children to believe, it just educates them in the Catholic faith under the authority of their parents. When they are old enough, they get to choose, and if they become members, they are still always free to leave any time they wish to do so, and nobody can prevent them from doing so.

It's a private club, no different than any other private club that has rules. If you don't like the rules, join another club.

Now, in response to THAT statement, I expect you to argue something along the lines of "Yeah, but the Boy Scouts don't threaten you with hellfire and damnation if you quit." Very true, but entirely irrelevant. If you believe in hellfire and damnation, then the church is the place to be and adherence to its dogma is the thing to do to save your immortal soul. If you don't believe in hellfire and damnation, who gives a flying fuck what Catholics believe or say? Just walk away and leave them to their delusions.

And what "fraud" has the church perpetrated? I suspect you believe that it's theistic claims constitute "fraud" but you'll have a damned tough time proving that in court, since you can't provide a shred of proof that what they claim is not the truth. You might think you can, but as I have pointed out, religious beliefs are a tricky thing when it comes to determining "truth." That's why the memes are so effective. And since association is voluntary these days, you'll not have much luck I'm afraid.

And I suppose in such a case one could not swear on the bible.

Depends on whether you believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

[JimC]

Seth wrote:

Depends on whether you believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

And why the fuck would anybody believe such delusional bullshit unless they'de been brainwashed from birth by instititions with a massive gain from having such a flock of sheeples (to use your term...)

Peddle your crap on a forum which gives a shit...

[Seth]

Seth wrote:

Depends on whether you believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

And why the fuck would anybody believe such delusional bullshit unless they'de been brainwashed from birth by instititions with a massive gain from having such a flock of sheeples (to use your term...)

Not my problem or my concern. I'm satisfied to let people go to hell in their own way, so long as they are peaceable about it.

Peddle your crap on a forum which gives a shit...

I like it here thanks, despite the oceans of crap I have to wade through to find the occasional pearl of wisdom.

[JimC]

Seth wrote:

Depends on whether you believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

And why the fuck would anybody believe such delusional bullshit unless they'de been brainwashed from birth by instititions with a massive gain from having such a flock of sheeples (to use your term...)

Not my problem or my concern. I'm satisfied to let people go to hell in their own way, so long as they are peaceable about it.

Peddle your crap on a forum which gives a shit...

I like it here thanks, despite the oceans of crap I have to wade through to find the occasional pearl of wisdom.

The implication being that you believe in hell...

Admit it, your not a tolerist, you are another mindless fundie getting your jollies on an atheist forum.

Fuck off.

[Seth]

Seth wrote:

Depends on whether you believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

And why the fuck would anybody believe such delusional bullshit unless they'de been brainwashed from birth by instititions with a massive gain from having such a flock of sheeples (to use your term...)

Not my problem or my concern. I'm satisfied to let people go to hell in their own way, so long as they are peaceable about it.

Peddle your crap on a forum which gives a shit...

I like it here thanks, despite the oceans of crap I have to wade through to find the occasional pearl of wisdom.

The implication being that you believe in hell...

No, the implication is, to those who are not fuckwitted Atheist morons, is that THEY may believe in hell, and I'm satisfied to let them believe that because it's no skin of my nose if they do.

Admit it, your not a tolerist, you are another mindless fundie getting your jollies on an atheist forum.

That's "Tolerist™." The trademark symbol is required.

And no, I'm not a "fundie" (whatever that means in the dank depths of your paranoid delusion), I'm completely non-theistic in my beliefs. It's just that I find it endlessly amusing to troll Atheist fuckwits who can't distinguish between a theist and someone who is adept at deconstructing fallacious Atheist arguments. You seem to be laboring under the misconception that everyone who doesn't believe in God must necessarily adhere to radical, militant, religious Atheism.

It's sort of like black people calling Frederick Douglass, Herman Cain or Alan Keyes "Uncle Tom" because they have the temerity to be conservative blacks who don't adhere to the Liberation Theology orthodoxy of Jeremiah Wright.

Well, here's some information for you: Not every non-theist is a hateful, bigoted, prejudice, intolerant prick. Most Atheists are however, present company included, so YOU fuck off.

[JimC]

Still merrily trolling, still pretending to be tolerant, still hiding what you truly believe...

You are a little more transparent than you realise. Your agenda is fairly clear to most here...

[Seth]

Still merrily trolling, still pretending to be tolerant, still hiding what you truly believe...

You are a little more transparent than you realise. Your agenda is fairly clear to most here...

Evidently not, despite my having made it perfectly clear in my welcome thread. That means that the problem lies with your prejudices, bigotry and incapacity to reason, not my agenda.

[JimC]

Still merrily trolling, still pretending to be tolerant, still hiding what you truly believe...

You are a little more transparent than you realise. Your agenda is fairly clear to most here...

Evidently not, despite my having made it perfectly clear in my welcome thread. That means that the problem lies with your prejudices, bigotry and incapacity to reason, not my agenda.

I beg to differ...

You seem to think your position is a clever bit of PR...

In reality, it is simply "let's attack any atheist position, anywhere, for any reason"

If it means defending kiddy fiddlers in the church, then that's just too bad...

[BrettA]

...Now, in response to THAT statement, I expect you to argue something along the lines of "Yeah, but the Boy Scouts don't threaten you with hellfire and damnation if you quit." ...

The fucking Boy Scouts - being the intolerant religious fucks that they are - don't want atheists anyway.

[Seth]

Still merrily trolling, still pretending to be tolerant, still hiding what you truly believe...

You are a little more transparent than you realise. Your agenda is fairly clear to most here...

Evidently not, despite my having made it perfectly clear in my welcome thread. That means that the problem lies with your prejudices, bigotry and incapacity to reason, not my agenda.

I beg to differ...

You seem to think your position is a clever bit of PR...

In reality, it is simply "let's attack any atheist position, anywhere, for any reason"

If it means defending kiddy fiddlers in the church, then that's just too bad...

Nah, just the radical, militantly religious Atheist fuckwits really. They're easy. And so are you.

I don't have a problem with atheists (little "a") who mind their own business and live in peace with religions that live in peace with them.

[Seth]

...Now, in response to THAT statement, I expect you to argue something along the lines of "Yeah, but the Boy Scouts don't threaten you with hellfire and damnation if you quit." ...

The fucking Boy Scouts - being the intolerant religious fucks that they are - don't want atheists anyway.

So? It's a private club and you're not invited to join. If you don't want the religion, start another club of your own. What makes you think you have any right to judge the Boy Scouts and their policies or expect them to admit people whose beliefs are antithetical to the club's founding principles?

Pretty fucking arrogant of you to demand that people associate with you even if they don't want to. It's their constitutional right to discriminate against you because you're an Atheist, and they have pretty good cause to do so in my estimation.

[JimC]

...Now, in response to THAT statement, I expect you to argue something along the lines of "Yeah, but the Boy Scouts don't threaten you with hellfire and damnation if you quit." ...

The fucking Boy Scouts - being the intolerant religious fucks that they are - don't want atheists anyway.

So? It's a private club and you're not invited to join. If you don't want the religion, start another club of your own. What makes you think you have any right to judge the Boy Scouts and their policies or expect them to admit people whose beliefs are antithetical to the club's founding principles?

Pretty fucking arrogant of you to demand that people associate with you even if they don't want to. It's their constitutional right to discriminate against you because you're an Atheist, and they have pretty good cause to do so in my estimation.

Fuck off, Seth...