Obama Tackles College Loan Relief

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Coito ergo sum
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:59 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:Here's the thing-- is capping student loan repayment demonstrably different from cutting taxes for a certain part of the population, or providing public assistance to same?
Yes, because one is like arbitrarily forgiving people's car loans, and the other is cutting taxes or providing assistance to the needy.
I don't own a home, so I pay taxes that people who do own property don't. Is that fair? How is it different?
Not all taxes are fair, and fairness is in the eye of the beholder. Some folks don't think progressive taxation is fair. Some people who make under $X a year don't pay any income tax. People with children, as you have, get child tax credits, which aren't fair to me.

What's different is that a student loan is an obligation that an individual chooses to undertake, and what's happening is the government is just going ahead and saying "no, let me get that for you." That is fundamentally different than taxation in general.

I'm definitely not a fan of all this tax loopholes and social incentives in the tax code. Impose a rate, and make it fairly applicable to all, and leave it. The tax code has become a nightmare.

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by MrJonno » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:00 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:College should be completely tax funded.
Other than the fact that college students would love to go for free, why?

Maybe masters degree, law school and PHD programs should be covered too?

And, how about transportation, food, clothing and shelter?

Err you are taking the piss I'm considering doing a PHD and I expect to be PAID by the state never mind paying the state fees. A lot of people moan that the wages (PHD = job where I'm contributing knowledge which may be useful to the state) arent anywhere near high enough but nothing is perfect.

When I did my 1st degree not only did I pay no fees but I did get a grant for transportation, food clothing and shelt. It wasnt enough unfortunately I left university with about £1000 $1500 in debt which I thought was an awful lot in 1993.

Alas in the UK we have this shitty libertarian government that is trying to emulate the US but what is cool is you can simply go abroad to the Netherlands where you will get all these things wait for it at the Dutch tax payers expense never mind the UK's for a degree given in English.

Basically university education is what being educated to 16 was 50 years ago a basic minimum to function in 90% of jobs these days. Maybe the US still has a bit of a manufacturing base pretty much now if you can't wear a suit and tie and work in an office you are likely to be unemployed for a long time

I actually quite like Coito ergo sum obviously an intelligent guy but its pretty obvious the culture you grow completely shapes your political views. Makes me wonder what I would be like if I had grown up in the US
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:02 pm

hadespussercats wrote:And by the by-- taking care of a kid is different from grooming a lawn. Society does have a stake in its citizens being kept safe, raised well, educated...

(But no-- I'm not asking the government to pay for it. Still, it could be good for society if it did.)
Arguably, and I've heard a lot of folks arguing this, having kids is detrimental to the planet, including environmentally, and especially given the fact that we're at about 7 billion people.

The grooming the lawn is just another life choice. You chose to have a child, someone else might choose not to, in order to not have that responsibility, or because they feel it's better for society that they don't contribute to the population problem. It is not "objectively" better for society that more people have children - it may well be argued, and is argued by some, that it would be better if we halved the population of the world....

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:14 pm

MrJonno wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:College should be completely tax funded.
Other than the fact that college students would love to go for free, why?

Maybe masters degree, law school and PHD programs should be covered too?

And, how about transportation, food, clothing and shelter?

Err you are taking the piss I'm considering doing a PHD and I expect to be PAID by the state never mind paying the state fees. A lot of people moan that the wages (PHD = job where I'm contributing knowledge which may be useful to the state) arent anywhere near high enough but nothing is perfect.
If someone wants to pay you to have a PHD or for someone else to do something else, or nothing, or a prostitute to give blowjobs, I generally don't consider it my business who pays what to whom. Many things can be useful to the state, and the number of opinions about what is good for the state roughly approximate the number of rectums on the planet.
MrJonno wrote:
When I did my 1st degree not only did I pay no fees but I did get a grant for transportation, food clothing and shelt. It wasnt enough unfortunately I left university with about £1000 $1500 in debt which I thought was an awful lot in 1993.
Doesn't sound like too bad a deal for you.
MrJonno wrote:
Alas in the UK we have this shitty libertarian government that is trying to emulate the US but what is cool is you can simply go abroad to the Netherlands where you will get all these things wait for it at the Dutch tax payers expense never mind the UK's for a degree given in English.
If they emulate the US, it won't be libertarianism that they get.
MrJonno wrote:
Basically university education is what being educated to 16 was 50 years ago a basic minimum to function in 90% of jobs these days. Maybe the US still has a bit of a manufacturing base pretty much now if you can't wear a suit and tie and work in an office you are likely to be unemployed for a long time

I actually quite like Coito ergo sum obviously an intelligent guy but its pretty obvious the culture you grow completely shapes your political views. Makes me wonder what I would be like if I had grown up in the US
Oh, I don't know. My political views are, according to that political compass thing that is the subject of a thread, is to the left of center a couple of clicks, and very non-authoritarian. I'm essentially a liberal-libertarian. I don't believe in impotent government, I believe in limited government. I think what you're sensing, however, is my visceral aversion to people demanding free stuff. I don't mind helping people in need, until it's no longer need but "want." I "want" something, and I "want" YOU to pay for it. Pisses me off... especially when the people doing the fucking demanding are young, able-bodied adults - my reaction is - fucking grow up and take care of yourself, douchebag. Don't come to me, another able-bodied adult, albeit not quite so young, and tell me that I have to pay for your shit. And, that's what a pack of idiot college students sound like when they demand free tuition. It's not the disabled looking for a help up, or the poverty stricken looking for a helping hand. It's the perfectly well able, and many from fairly well-to-do families, that are claiming they have a right to a free college education.

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by MrJonno » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:33 pm

Well I'm in theory not against some sort of graduate tax where if you go to college you pay extra income tax for life or at least until you have paid a certain amount back. Would be progressive of course more the earn the higher % of pay but it really does come to how many people come to university. I believe some Scandanavian countries are approaching 95% graduates so such a tax would be redundant.

I do expect people to pay their way to the best of their ability ie if you can work you should be working and paying taxes. Hard to calculate but I'm reasonably confident that I've paid more in taxes than I've taken out the state but there probably isnt much in it, no one likes people who abuse the welfare state more than lefties (probably relatively conservative by UK standards these days).

Parents paying for the children higher education is a bit difficult, should someone who has no financial income really be reliant on their parents for whether they can go to university or not. Education up to 18 doesnt rely on this through of course state education can be variable
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:42 pm

MrJonno wrote:Well I'm in theory not against some sort of graduate tax where if you go to college you pay extra income tax for life or at least until you have paid a certain amount back. Would be progressive of course more the earn the higher % of pay but it really does come to how many people come to university. I believe some Scandanavian countries are approaching 95% graduates so such a tax would be redundant.

I do expect people to pay their way to the best of their ability ie if you can work you should be working and paying taxes.
See, that's where I disagree, and you might be surprised. I absolutely reject the notion that "if you can work you should be working and paying taxes." Absolutely not. If you want to work, fine. If you don't, fine. Makes no nevermind to me, and I don't see why it is my business if you work, or your business if I work. We don't have some slave-like obligation to work to pay taxes to the government.
MrJonno wrote:
Hard to calculate but I'm reasonably confident that I've paid more in taxes than I've taken out the state but there probably isnt much in it, no one likes people who abuse the welfare state more than lefties (probably relatively conservative by UK standards these days).
Well, I disagree there. It depends on the lefty, but overall, I don't think many lefties think the welfare state can be abused. Anyone suggesting that middle class college students shouldn't be paid $100,000 each to fund what the average student uses as a 4 year beer and pot binge is not supporting "welfare" for the needy. They are supporting freebies for the able bodied, and able minded.

i mean - don't have enough money for college? Find a way to fund it. Maybe take a couple of years off and work hard and save some bones. Work full time and go to school at night. Whatever.

MrJonno wrote:
Parents paying for the children higher education is a bit difficult, should someone who has no financial income really be reliant on their parents for whether they can go to university or not. Education up to 18 doesnt rely on this through of course state education can be variable
How about, work full time and go to community college part time at night? At a two year college, the average cost for tuition and fees is $2,713. That's in 2011. Criminy - live at the parents' home, commute to the local community college and wait tables or bartend. Pay for your own shit. Oh, you want to go to Columbia that costs $212,000 for four years - didn't get a scholarship? Well, tough titty said the kitty.

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by MrJonno » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:58 pm

How about, work full time and go to community college part time at night? At a two year college, the average cost for tuition and fees is $2,713. That's in 2011. Criminy - live at the parents' home, commute to the local community college and wait tables or bartend. Pay for your own shit. Oh, you want to go to Columbia that costs $212,000 for four years - didn't get a scholarship? Well, tough titty said the kitty.
Not really up on post 18 US education, sounds very different to me. Not sure what a 2 year college is and with such low fees unless its getting a lot of state funding its not what I would count as a university in the UK. You have credited and unaccredited universities don't you which again is pretty much an Americanism. You can't even use the word 'university' is you arent academically approved to be of a certain standard (in theory all degrees in the UK are of an equal value).

As for working most universities do not encourage anyone to do more than a few hours of work during term time (some explictily ban it), you are there to study and if you arent concentrating on that you are (well were in the UK) costing the state money. I know a few parents in the UK who would be horrified if they found they kids working before they were 21. Of considering youth unemployment is between 20 and 40% throughout the western world getting a job is hardly that easy either
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:24 pm

MrJonno wrote:
How about, work full time and go to community college part time at night? At a two year college, the average cost for tuition and fees is $2,713. That's in 2011. Criminy - live at the parents' home, commute to the local community college and wait tables or bartend. Pay for your own shit. Oh, you want to go to Columbia that costs $212,000 for four years - didn't get a scholarship? Well, tough titty said the kitty.
Not really up on post 18 US education, sounds very different to me. Not sure what a 2 year college is and with such low fees unless its getting a lot of state funding its not what I would count as a university in the UK. You have credited and unaccredited universities don't you which again is pretty much an Americanism. You can't even use the word 'university' is you arent academically approved to be of a certain standard (in theory all degrees in the UK are of an equal value).
We have community colleges - generally called county colleges - where people can go for associates degrees. They let anyone in, and are dirt cheap. Each county tends to have one. Then there are hundreds of colleges and universities, some State and some private. State schools are less expensive and always have less expensive tuition for in-state students (students that live in that state). For example, Wayne State University in Detroit costs under $5000 for a full boat of 15 credit hours (five classes - most students are full time and only take 12 credits). Not bad. Michigan State is about $6100 for 15 credits. Macomb Community College costs $1200 for 15 credits for someone living in that county, and $2000 for someone living outside the county. So, the average 18 year old could be a waiter, live at home, and pay their way through Macomb Community College, and with a little help from their parents, could pay for Wayne State. And, if they are poor there are grants and other charity, and if they want to pay some and borrow some they can with federally guaranteed loans.

I mean - the idea that able-bodied, able-minded Americans can't go to college, or have to go into debt to the tune of $100,000 to get a college education is, plainly, fucking bullshit.
MrJonno wrote:[

As for working most universities do not encourage anyone to do more than a few hours of work during term time (some explictily ban it), you are there to study and if you arent concentrating on that you are (well were in the UK) costing the state money. I know a few parents in the UK who would be horrified if they found they kids working before they were 21. Of considering youth unemployment is between 20 and 40% throughout the western world getting a job is hardly that easy either
The suggestion that American college kids are burning the midnight oil all semester and "dedicated to their studies" applies to about 3% of the student body. The rest are high, drunk, fucking, or a combination of the three. From the cognitive abilities of our college graduates, it's pretty clear most of them aren't all that educated when they leave school.

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Tero » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:49 pm

But it all goes to beer pizza and concert tickets. The college kids are keeping the economy alive.

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by klr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:59 pm

I've just read the entire thread, and (to quote Yogi Berra) it's déjà vu all over again. I think we've been here before on this subject, and we're probably going to keep going around in circles. :lol:

One point though: "Free fees" usually means free tuition fees, which (at least here in Ireland) then leaves the universities free to charge an ever-increasing separate fee for "registration/non tuition", now running to a couple of thousand Euro a year. To begin with, it was just a pittance. Now, no-one is going to convince me that administration costs have expanded 10-fold in the past 10-15 years. I should know: That's where I work. :shifty:

So we only "sort of" have free 3rd level fees here in Ireland. We're also going to struggle to stay in the upper echelons of the world rankings the way things are going.

The "economic" fee - what would be charged if there were no government subsidies at all - might be 10,000 Euro a year, or even more for some programs.
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:36 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:And by the by-- taking care of a kid is different from grooming a lawn. Society does have a stake in its citizens being kept safe, raised well, educated...

(But no-- I'm not asking the government to pay for it. Still, it could be good for society if it did.)
Arguably, and I've heard a lot of folks arguing this, having kids is detrimental to the planet, including environmentally, and especially given the fact that we're at about 7 billion people.

The grooming the lawn is just another life choice. You chose to have a child, someone else might choose not to, in order to not have that responsibility, or because they feel it's better for society that they don't contribute to the population problem. It is not "objectively" better for society that more people have children - it may well be argued, and is argued by some, that it would be better if we halved the population of the world....
Yup.
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:37 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:And by the by-- taking care of a kid is different from grooming a lawn. Society does have a stake in its citizens being kept safe, raised well, educated...

(But no-- I'm not asking the government to pay for it. Still, it could be good for society if it did.)
Arguably, and I've heard a lot of folks arguing this, having kids is detrimental to the planet, including environmentally, and especially given the fact that we're at about 7 billion people.

The grooming the lawn is just another life choice. You chose to have a child, someone else might choose not to, in order to not have that responsibility, or because they feel it's better for society that they don't contribute to the population problem. It is not "objectively" better for society that more people have children - it may well be argued, and is argued by some, that it would be better if we halved the population of the world....
Yup.
Still, once those children exist, they're part of society, and have needs and rights that a lawn does not.
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:42 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:And by the by-- taking care of a kid is different from grooming a lawn. Society does have a stake in its citizens being kept safe, raised well, educated...

(But no-- I'm not asking the government to pay for it. Still, it could be good for society if it did.)
Arguably, and I've heard a lot of folks arguing this, having kids is detrimental to the planet, including environmentally, and especially given the fact that we're at about 7 billion people.

The grooming the lawn is just another life choice. You chose to have a child, someone else might choose not to, in order to not have that responsibility, or because they feel it's better for society that they don't contribute to the population problem. It is not "objectively" better for society that more people have children - it may well be argued, and is argued by some, that it would be better if we halved the population of the world....
Yup.
Still, once those children exist, they're part of society, and have needs and rights that a lawn does not.
But my original comment (lest this get lost in the shuffle) was two different points-- one was picturing possibilities that Obama's proposal would open up for my family, and another that was about economic incentives.

I've never maintained that other people should pay my bills so I don't have to have a job.

But when I picture my life if my husband and I didn't have loan debt, the first thing I thought of was that I wouldn't have to worry so much about daycare, etc., etc., because I could afford to stay at home and only work gigs as it made sense schedule-wise. I like the picture, I have to admit.
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:49 pm

klr wrote:I've just read the entire thread, and (to quote Yogi Berra) it's déjà vu all over again. I think we've been here before on this subject, and we're probably going to keep going around in circles. :lol:

One point though: "Free fees" usually means free tuition fees, which (at least here in Ireland) then leaves the universities free to charge an ever-increasing separate fee for "registration/non tuition", now running to a couple of thousand Euro a year.
Which kind of destroys the benefit of government sponsored tuition. Here, a good school like Michigan State's tuition is about $6,000 for 15 credits, and a community college is about $1200 to $2000 for 15 credits. If the government is going to pay that, but then the schools are going to be able charge more through other avenues, what's the difference?

It's like the dental insurance scam here in the US. Insurance pays for the visit, but then there are always "extras" that have to be paid out of pocket (stuff that always used to be included when there wasn't dental insurance) so you wind up paying just as much as if you didn't have insurance, but the dentist office gets paid by you and the insurance company.

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:13 am

hadespussercats wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:And by the by-- taking care of a kid is different from grooming a lawn. Society does have a stake in its citizens being kept safe, raised well, educated...

(But no-- I'm not asking the government to pay for it. Still, it could be good for society if it did.)
Arguably, and I've heard a lot of folks arguing this, having kids is detrimental to the planet, including environmentally, and especially given the fact that we're at about 7 billion people.

The grooming the lawn is just another life choice. You chose to have a child, someone else might choose not to, in order to not have that responsibility, or because they feel it's better for society that they don't contribute to the population problem. It is not "objectively" better for society that more people have children - it may well be argued, and is argued by some, that it would be better if we halved the population of the world....
Yup.
Still, once those children exist, they're part of society, and have needs and rights that a lawn does not.
Sure, but traditionally the primary responsibility of caring for children lies with the child's parents.

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