Obama Tackles College Loan Relief

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:19 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
FBM wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
FBM wrote:Germany. Free university. :tup:
Free to the one receiving the benefit of the education. Many of those students - most probably - could afford it - and some of that money could be used to feed the hungry, and house the homeless.
Those students' parents, if not the students themselves, pay the same taxes as everyone else. Not really free to anyone, strictly speaking, but available to members of every economic class. The hungry and homeless have equal access, at least, whether they avail themselves of the opportunity or not.
The hungry and homeless need food and homes before they need college.

And, every economic class already has access here. That's what the loans are for. They're federally guaranteed, so people with shit credit still get them.
This isn't true.

I needed a professor from undergrad to co-sign my grad school loans, because my parents were bad credit risks (I had a scholarship for undergrad.)

And we were poor, but educated, employed poor-- many are worse off than we were.
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:23 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
FBM wrote:"employed" =/= "self-supporting." Those employed and without a degree (unskilled, minimum wage earners, mostly ) receive the lion's share of public assistance compared to those with a degree, I'd expect. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. If they had a degree, they'd be more likely to manage without public funds.

[citation needed re average wage of non-degreed persons] - I do not believe it is established, or likely, that most non-degreed people are "unskilled." Huge numbers of skilled labor make very nice salaries - example: auto workers.

Sure, I am willing to bet that most public assistance is received by people without degrees, but, public assistance is not received by most or even a huge minority of people in general.

As for "more likely to manage without public funds" - I don't know of that's the case. If everyone had a degree, there still wouldn't be "degreed-type-work" for everyone to do.

Only 1/3 of working people actually have bachelors degrees. That doesn't mean that if they all had bachelors degrees they'd have better jobs.
Auto workers? Really? That's your example?

Their pay and benefits have been plummeting since the 80's, and they're in a dying industry (here in the US, anyway.) And I really hope you're not citing them without also being a big fan of labor unions.
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:34 pm

Here's the thing-- is capping student loan repayment demonstrably different from cutting taxes for a certain part of the population, or providing public assistance to same?

I don't think the nation owes me my loan money, and I take care of that responsibility. But without our loan payments, I could stay home with the Sprog til he's in school, and J and I could spend far more freely. This effect spread across the entire educated populace is quite an economic incentive, don't you think?
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:36 pm

Here's the thing-- is capping student loan repayment demonstrably different from cutting taxes for a certain part of the population, or providing public assistance to same?

I don't think the nation owes me my loan money, and I take care of that responsibility. But without our loan payments, I could stay home with the Sprog til he's in school, and J and I could spend far more freely. This effect spread across the entire educated populace is quite an economic incentive, don't you think?
Plus, college budgets have been spiralling for decades-- wouldn't a cap on loan profits encourage schools to keep their costs under control?
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by MattShizzle » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:40 pm

Well, of course everyone should be provided with clothing, food, health care and a place to live as a basic human right.

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:41 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
Here's the thing-- is capping student loan repayment demonstrably different from cutting taxes for a certain part of the population, or providing public assistance to same?

I don't think the nation owes me my loan money, and I take care of that responsibility. But without our loan payments, I could stay home with the Sprog til he's in school, and J and I could spend far more freely. This effect spread across the entire educated populace is quite an economic incentive, don't you think?
Plus, college budgets have been spiralling for decades-- wouldn't a cap on loan profits encourage schools to keep their costs under control?
Nobody is proposing a "cap on loan profits" are they?

What they're doing is just writing off debt, but the federal government will still pay off the banks that give the student loans. The banks aren't taking a hit. The banks don't give a shit who pays them.

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:42 pm

MattShizzle wrote:Well, of course everyone should be provided with clothing, food, health care and a place to live as a basic human right.
Everyone should be given assistance if they need it, or everyone should get state clothing food, health care and a home? Those are two VERY different things...

Which are you referring to?

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:46 pm

hadespussercats wrote:Here's the thing-- is capping student loan repayment demonstrably different from cutting taxes for a certain part of the population, or providing public assistance to same?
Yes, because one is like arbitrarily forgiving people's car loans, and the other is cutting taxes or providing assistance to the needy.
hadespussercats wrote:
I don't think the nation owes me my loan money, and I take care of that responsibility. But without our loan payments, I could stay home with the Sprog til he's in school, and J and I could spend far more freely. This effect spread across the entire educated populace is quite an economic incentive, don't you think?
Yeah - but, it's not anybody else's business what you do with Sprog. You didn't ask anyone to have 2, 3 or 4 children, and nobody asked you to have any. I mean - I love kids and all, and but for a large number of people having babies, I'd prefer they didn't, nor is it fair to saddle single people with the obligation to pay out money to pay off people's student loans so they stay home with the kids. What if a single person wants to stay home and take care of the yard?

An economic incentive for what?

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:48 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
FBM wrote:"employed" =/= "self-supporting." Those employed and without a degree (unskilled, minimum wage earners, mostly ) receive the lion's share of public assistance compared to those with a degree, I'd expect. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. If they had a degree, they'd be more likely to manage without public funds.

[citation needed re average wage of non-degreed persons] - I do not believe it is established, or likely, that most non-degreed people are "unskilled." Huge numbers of skilled labor make very nice salaries - example: auto workers.

Sure, I am willing to bet that most public assistance is received by people without degrees, but, public assistance is not received by most or even a huge minority of people in general.

As for "more likely to manage without public funds" - I don't know of that's the case. If everyone had a degree, there still wouldn't be "degreed-type-work" for everyone to do.

Only 1/3 of working people actually have bachelors degrees. That doesn't mean that if they all had bachelors degrees they'd have better jobs.
Auto workers? Really? That's your example?

Their pay and benefits have been plummeting since the 80's, and they're in a dying industry (here in the US, anyway.) And I really hope you're not citing them without also being a big fan of labor unions.
Hades, you can't blow that by me. I know auto workers at various levels in Ford, GM and Chrysler. I have worked with two out of the Big-3 American auto companies. I know full well what the pay and benefits are, and you can trust me - the pay and benefits have not plummeted.

I am citing them as an example of something very specific - that what FBM was saying was not demonstrably true. And,they weren't my only example either.

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:55 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:Here's the thing-- is capping student loan repayment demonstrably different from cutting taxes for a certain part of the population, or providing public assistance to same?
Yes, because one is like arbitrarily forgiving people's car loans, and the other is cutting taxes or providing assistance to the needy.
hadespussercats wrote:
I don't think the nation owes me my loan money, and I take care of that responsibility. But without our loan payments, I could stay home with the Sprog til he's in school, and J and I could spend far more freely. This effect spread across the entire educated populace is quite an economic incentive, don't you think?
Yeah - but, it's not anybody else's business what you do with Sprog. You didn't ask anyone to have 2, 3 or 4 children, and nobody asked you to have any. I mean - I love kids and all, and but for a large number of people having babies, I'd prefer they didn't, nor is it fair to saddle single people with the obligation to pay out money to pay off people's student loans so they stay home with the kids. What if a single person wants to stay home and take care of the yard?

An economic incentive for what?
You're misunderstanding me-- I'm just pointing out that capping these loans would change the economic lifestyle of a wide swath of the populace, in ways that might boost the economy.

A cap on loans might work as an incentive for people to put the money earmarked for loan service into wider circulation.
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:57 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:Here's the thing-- is capping student loan repayment demonstrably different from cutting taxes for a certain part of the population, or providing public assistance to same?
Yes, because one is like arbitrarily forgiving people's car loans, and the other is cutting taxes or providing assistance to the needy.
I don't own a home, so I pay taxes that people who do own property don't. Is that fair? How is it different?
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:01 pm

And by the by-- taking care of a kid is different from grooming a lawn. Society does have a stake in its citizens being kept safe, raised well, educated...

(But no-- I'm not asking the government to pay for it. Still, it could be good for society if it did.)
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:05 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
FBM wrote:"employed" =/= "self-supporting." Those employed and without a degree (unskilled, minimum wage earners, mostly ) receive the lion's share of public assistance compared to those with a degree, I'd expect. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. If they had a degree, they'd be more likely to manage without public funds.

[citation needed re average wage of non-degreed persons] - I do not believe it is established, or likely, that most non-degreed people are "unskilled." Huge numbers of skilled labor make very nice salaries - example: auto workers.

Sure, I am willing to bet that most public assistance is received by people without degrees, but, public assistance is not received by most or even a huge minority of people in general.

As for "more likely to manage without public funds" - I don't know of that's the case. If everyone had a degree, there still wouldn't be "degreed-type-work" for everyone to do.

Only 1/3 of working people actually have bachelors degrees. That doesn't mean that if they all had bachelors degrees they'd have better jobs.
Auto workers? Really? That's your example?

Their pay and benefits have been plummeting since the 80's, and they're in a dying industry (here in the US, anyway.) And I really hope you're not citing them without also being a big fan of labor unions.
Hades, you can't blow that by me. I know auto workers at various levels in Ford, GM and Chrysler. I have worked with two out of the Big-3 American auto companies. I know full well what the pay and benefits are, and you can trust me - the pay and benefits have not plummeted.

I am citing them as an example of something very specific - that what FBM was saying was not demonstrably true. And,they weren't my only example either.
Yeah, you're right-- if you happen to have the necessary skills or the physical ability, you don't need a degree to make good money. You'll note few of the professions you listed as examples employ many women.

As for the auto industry, I'll admit most of my info is from this book: http://www.amazon.com/Rivethead-Tales-A ... 0446394009
and this movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098213/-- neither of which paint a pretty picture. But it's no secret to anyone who watches the news that the US auto industry has been in dire straits for years. It doesn't seem like a sustainable industry.
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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:09 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:Here's the thing-- is capping student loan repayment demonstrably different from cutting taxes for a certain part of the population, or providing public assistance to same?
Yes, because one is like arbitrarily forgiving people's car loans, and the other is cutting taxes or providing assistance to the needy.
hadespussercats wrote:
I don't think the nation owes me my loan money, and I take care of that responsibility. But without our loan payments, I could stay home with the Sprog til he's in school, and J and I could spend far more freely. This effect spread across the entire educated populace is quite an economic incentive, don't you think?
Yeah - but, it's not anybody else's business what you do with Sprog. You didn't ask anyone to have 2, 3 or 4 children, and nobody asked you to have any. I mean - I love kids and all, and but for a large number of people having babies, I'd prefer they didn't, nor is it fair to saddle single people with the obligation to pay out money to pay off people's student loans so they stay home with the kids. What if a single person wants to stay home and take care of the yard?

An economic incentive for what?
You're misunderstanding me-- I'm just pointing out that capping these loans would change the economic lifestyle of a wide swath of the populace, in ways that might boost the economy.
Paying off a someone's student loan so that they will stay home to take care of children isn't a way to boost the economy. The government just paying off people's debts, or part of people's debts, doesn't boost the economy. It inflates the currency, because since we are borrowing all of our money and/or printing new money to cover these things,and it would just artificially make GDP look bigger than it really is (because the government payments to pay off student loans would be automatically counted as part of GDP).
hadespussercats wrote:
A cap on loans might work as an incentive for people to put the money earmarked for loan service into wider circulation.
I'm not getting how the government borrowing or printing money to pay off billions of dollars of student loans helps the economy. You might get a small blip when some of those people buy things they otherwise wouldn't, perhaps. But, overall, the effect on the money supply of doing these spending programs is of a much worse effect than any blip due to consumer spending.

The only way to really help the economy is to have the economy expand with new productive industry. That's the reason the 1990s were so good. Computers, cell phones and the internet. Entirely new industries that were able to produce hundreds of billions of dollars of new goods and services. Maybe more than a trillion dollars worth. We don't have anything new like that on the horizon now, and the government is doing all it can to squelch the industries that we do have - coal, oil, nuclear and any manufacturing in the US is being hurt by our government, not helped. And, we do things like finance Finnish auto companies, and make laws that destroy the domestic light bulb market and hand it over the Chinese.

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Re: Obama proposes to cap student loan repayment.

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:20 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:Here's the thing-- is capping student loan repayment demonstrably different from cutting taxes for a certain part of the population, or providing public assistance to same?
Yes, because one is like arbitrarily forgiving people's car loans, and the other is cutting taxes or providing assistance to the needy.
hadespussercats wrote:
I don't think the nation owes me my loan money, and I take care of that responsibility. But without our loan payments, I could stay home with the Sprog til he's in school, and J and I could spend far more freely. This effect spread across the entire educated populace is quite an economic incentive, don't you think?
Yeah - but, it's not anybody else's business what you do with Sprog. You didn't ask anyone to have 2, 3 or 4 children, and nobody asked you to have any. I mean - I love kids and all, and but for a large number of people having babies, I'd prefer they didn't, nor is it fair to saddle single people with the obligation to pay out money to pay off people's student loans so they stay home with the kids. What if a single person wants to stay home and take care of the yard?

An economic incentive for what?
You're misunderstanding me-- I'm just pointing out that capping these loans would change the economic lifestyle of a wide swath of the populace, in ways that might boost the economy.
Paying off a someone's student loan so that they will stay home to take care of children isn't a way to boost the economy. The government just paying off people's debts, or part of people's debts, doesn't boost the economy. It inflates the currency, because since we are borrowing all of our money and/or printing new money to cover these things,and it would just artificially make GDP look bigger than it really is (because the government payments to pay off student loans would be automatically counted as part of GDP).
I shouldn't have conflated those-- in my mind I was thinking one aspect could be seen (by some) as a societal good, while the economic incentive aspect could be seen as another. Let's drop the former-- I'm not so gung-ho about being a SAHM that I want to go rounds over it. It's already too loaded an issue.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:
A cap on loans might work as an incentive for people to put the money earmarked for loan service into wider circulation.
I'm not getting how the government borrowing or printing money to pay off billions of dollars of student loans helps the economy. You might get a small blip when some of those people buy things they otherwise wouldn't, perhaps. But, overall, the effect on the money supply of doing these spending programs is of a much worse effect than any blip due to consumer spending.

The only way to really help the economy is to have the economy expand with new productive industry. That's the reason the 1990s were so good. Computers, cell phones and the internet. Entirely new industries that were able to produce hundreds of billions of dollars of new goods and services. Maybe more than a trillion dollars worth. We don't have anything new like that on the horizon now, and the government is doing all it can to squelch the industries that we do have - coal, oil, nuclear and any manufacturing in the US is being hurt by our government, not helped. And, we do things like finance Finnish auto companies, and make laws that destroy the domestic light bulb market and hand it over the Chinese.
Well, I had hoped, reading your OP, that the banks backing the loans would be taking the hit for the cap. Still... the treasury subsidizing a debt that inhibits the spending of its populace in order to free things up a bit, get people spending-- how isn't that how incentives work? And aren't college-educated people the ones who, if freed from debt, might start small companies, innovate, create new products? Aren't these the people we should be looking to help if we want to develop a new, productive industry?
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