Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

[Coito ergo sum]

These are costs of doing business. And, what I've noticed from the left is a fairly cavalier attitude toward "costs of doing business." It's like, "oh, that's just a cost of doing business that the business has to deal with..." and hand wave it away. However, government policy in this regard, if too onerous, can drive lots of folks out of business, like laklak describes. Business is a risk. Laklak probably had a lot of his own money tied up in hard assets and at risk in terms of payroll and other fixed and variable costs associated with his business that he closed. At a certain point, the increase risk of loss just doesn't justify staying in the business. That doesn't help anyone.

Over regulate and all businesses go down, tax revenues fall and society falls apart but the sole purpose of governemnt/society should not to be allow businesses to succeed at any cost. If the only way a business can succeed s to treat their employees at an under acceptable standard then its better than business goes under and its employees are looked after us all (via welfare).

By the same token "us" doesn't have the capacity to look after anyone unless there is money, or resources, to do it. Who is going to be providing the food, if not farms, processing plants, transportation companies, and stores? Who is the "us?"

Acceptable standards are of course up to debate but not whether there should be one, fundamentally if you start a business and you employ someone you take on responsibilities not just for protecting your capital but that employees welfare . The employees obviously have a responsibility as well but its a shared one

As for acceptable standards - we can look at western society today and see that there isn't a time or place where people have had better standards than they do in western Europe and the US/Canada/Australia.

[Hermit]

You ever wonder where the "local businessman" went? Where did the "family owned mom and pop store" go?

That's another aspect of capitalism. When I was a child, just about all our food was bought at shops across or a little along the street we lived in. We had two grocers, a baker, a Konditorei, and a tailor within five minutes' walking distance, or less. This was in a residential area, and there was nothing extraordinary about our street. Unless my father had to buy a new car, decided to buy one of those newfangled amplifiers, or something like that, we simply had no need to go shopping for our needs anywhere else.

Then this huge store opened in the city. The owners opened similar establishments in other cities around the same time, and due to their buying power they were significantly cheaper than our local shops. All of a sudden we made weekly trips to the Kaufhalle. It took a few years, but eventually there was not a single shop left in the street I grew up in.

Small businesses have a much smaller chance of succeeding today because the chains of supermarkets (mhhh, supermarkets) smother their chances of succeeding with their buying power. That's capitalism at work again. No longer does a shopkeeper pump milk from his bulk container into the two-litre container you brought along. Now you reach into a chiller and grab a carton containing the stuff yourself. So efficient. So labour-saving. So small-business killing. So, no, I don't wonder where the local businessman and the family-owned shop went. I know what happened to them. They've been pushed out by bigger fish. At best they have become a franchisee. More likely though, wage earning or salaried employees of Coles-Myers or Walmart.

...pushed out by bigger fish who are better able to pay the costs and expenses associated with taxes and onerous regulations...

As I said, Wal-Mart can afford to hire an HR and Benefits department to deal with the myriad of labor and employment issues. Sam's Bakery and Deli can't. Sam's bakery and deli is on a shoestring budget, and making him give his stock clerks maternity/paternity leave, a month of paid vacation, and other such perks quickly becomes prohibitive. Wal-Mart can soak it up easily.

You asked me if I ever wonder where the local businessman and the family owned store went. I told you where they went, and why: It's capitalism at work.

[laklak]

It is NOT capitalism when the government, acting as an agent of big business, enacts regulatory and tax laws that specifically target small businesses. I paid corporate tax on my little operation, GE made 14 BILLION in profit and got a tax credit. How is that capitalism at work? I don't ask for special treatment, I only want to be able to run a small business and provide a niche product that big producers don't. However, the USDA is firmly in the pocket of Big Food and they do everything in their power to make it impossible for local producers to stay in business.

[MrJonno]

As for acceptable standards - we can look at western society today and see that there isn't a time or place where people have had better standards than they do in western Europe and the US/Canada/Australia.

The differences between the countries you have just mentioned as enormous, the gap between European working standards and American ones is as big as between American and Chinese ones. Don't Americans say that Chinese imports are cheap between worker rights are so poor while we in Europe could easily say the same about the US

A life where you don't get at least 20 days paid holiday (other people will think it should be more) simply isnt one worth living (nor is not having guaranteed health care regardless of salary).

There is definitely a balance of course in ensuring tax revenues come in to pay for public services but it seems quite obvious that nations can quite happily function with 20-30 days paid holiday, 1 years paid maternity leave , universal healthcare with a price of course of higher taxes.

Capitalism is a useful tool to pay for society but the important bit is society not the method of payment

[Schneibster]

What has happened here, particularly in the food production industry, is small producers that cannot afford the increased cost of the ludicrous new Federal regulations

Maybe you could be a bit more specific.

Sure. What happened is the USDA did two things, force their HACCP program

So basically you couldn't make it past the food safety regulations.

I have to say that sounds like a failure on your part rather than theirs, considering I'm reading about people dying of Listeria from cantaloupes. Wouldn't take but one of those to put you out of business from a lawsuit. Just sayin'.

Why couldn't you take the meat to 170 or whatever after smoking it?

ETA: I'm looking at a package of Oberto jerky that was not made in California (they're in Washington State) and therefore is subject to the same laws you were. I'm eating this jerky and it's fine. Presumably it was heated to 170 or whatever. What's your problem?

[Coito ergo sum]

What has happened here, particularly in the food production industry, is small producers that cannot afford the increased cost of the ludicrous new Federal regulations

Maybe you could be a bit more specific.

Sure. What happened is the USDA did two things, force their HACCP program

So basically you couldn't make it past the food safety regulations.

I have to say that sounds like a failure on your part rather than theirs, considering I'm reading about people dying of Listeria from cantaloupes. Wouldn't take but one of those to put you out of business from a lawsuit. Just sayin'.

Why couldn't you take the meat to 170 or whatever after smoking it?

The interesting thing about those food safety issues, is that they didn't occur in businesses of the kind laklak is talking about. They occurred in huge factor farms that ALREADY had to comply with the regulations that the USDA and HACCP program extended to the very small, local farmers and producers. In other words, the cantaloupes were grown not by the local grower, but by the huge producer who failed to protect the crops despite the USDA requirements.

So, the regulations laklak is talking about are too onerous for the small, local grower to comply with, and do nothing to protect us from the very lysteria that you mentioned.

[Tyrannical]

Hoover was a typical Republican - "don't do anyhting to help the poor - that would reward laziness. A rugged individual will succeed if they want to." Hence they threw him out after 1 term.

And elected FDR, yet even though he was the longest serving President, that depression still didn't end until he was dead and buried.

[Hermit]

It is NOT capitalism when the government, acting as an agent of big business, enacts regulatory and tax laws that specifically target small businesses. I paid corporate tax on my little operation, GE made 14 BILLION in profit and got a tax credit. How is that capitalism at work? I don't ask for special treatment, I only want to be able to run a small business and provide a niche product that big producers don't. However, the USDA is firmly in the pocket of Big Food and they do everything in their power to make it impossible for local producers to stay in business.

I am afraid that is as good as capitalism gets. Your conception of capitalism is about as real as communism, christianity and so on. You can read about those ideals in - among many other book - The Wealth of Nations, The Communist Manifesto and The Bible, but if you expect to find any of that stuff in the real world, all I can do is to wish you the best of luck.

[Pensioner]

It is NOT capitalism when the government, acting as an agent of big business, enacts regulatory and tax laws that specifically target small businesses. I paid corporate tax on my little operation, GE made 14 BILLION in profit and got a tax credit. How is that capitalism at work? I don't ask for special treatment, I only want to be able to run a small business and provide a niche product that big producers don't. However, the USDA is firmly in the pocket of Big Food and they do everything in their power to make it impossible for local producers to stay in business.

[Schneibster]

It is NOT capitalism when the government, acting as an agent of big business, enacts regulatory and tax laws that specifically target small businesses.

In fact, most regulatory and tax laws have been specifically tailored to assist small businesses; this is because they form half of our economy, and if they could not do business we would have been in a continuous depression since the 1970s.

Small business has its own Administration within the federal government, established by Eisenhower. It was previously a Depression-era program that funded small businesses with grants and loans, started by Roosevelt to combat the Great Depression. It still does fund small businesses, mostly with loans these days because the Republican Teagagger Party insists on means testing for every stupid little fucking thing the gummint does for anybody, and also offers counseling and access to federal contracts. If you didn't seek help from them you should have. If you did and didn't get it it was because the Republicans made a bunch of regulations to keep you from stealing gummint money.

Republicans have tried to kill the SBA twice in recent decades: once in the "Contract on America" in 1996, which got vetoed by Clinton, and again during the Bush administration by defunding it, which got overruled by Congress. Obama has insisted on funding it and it was and is part of the stimulus, as well as having ongoing funding. Of course, that doesn't fit with your version of reality, but then again since it's in the newspapers and yours isn't I guess I'll have to go with it.

I paid corporate tax on my little operation, GE made 14 BILLION in profit and got a tax credit. How is that capitalism at work?

GE did some things the government, that is, all of us as represented by our congresscritters and President, wanted done, and got a tax credit for doing them. That's what tax credits are for. They're not just arbitrary, or just for big corporations. You can get a lot of them, actually, just for being a small business.

What did you do for us all that makes it worth our time to give you a tax credit? Or did you in fact receive some tax credits, and just never bothered to acknowledge them here (far more likely, IMO)?

I don't ask for special treatment,

Yes, you do. First, you want money for nothing from my taxes. Second, you want to not have to deal with fussy regulations that keep you from going out of business due to being sued for making someone sick. Third, you want to be able to make a product that people get sick from and not have to ever know or worry about it.

You wouldn't do it on purpose. But after they sued you, you'd sure bitch about how much they hated you and were fucking you over, and how evil the gummint was for making you pay their medical expenses, which you voted to make private and therefore your responsibility. And how the insurance companies were in a giant conspiracy to put you out of business, too. And never a fucking word about how they'd suffered due to your negligence.

I only want to be able to run a small business and provide a niche product that big producers don't. However, the USDA is firmly in the pocket of Big Food and they do everything in their power to make it impossible for local producers to stay in business.

No, they don't; if they did, we'd have been in a depression since the 1970s.

[Schneibster]

Hoover was a typical Republican - "don't do anyhting to help the poor - that would reward laziness. A rugged individual will succeed if they want to." Hence they threw him out after 1 term.

And elected FDR, yet even though he was the longest serving President, that depression still didn't end until he was dead and buried.

Yep, Hoover sure did suck. That's how long it took to fix his fuckup.

[MrJonno]

Interesting how 'big food' is defined, pretty much anyone who has any capital invested in agriculture is taking a lot of money of the state. Not saying smaller farmers take less than larger ones but they are all on the take. Agriculture is about as much to do with the free market as defence contracts

[Schneibster]

Interesting how 'big food' is defined, pretty much anyone who has any capital invested in agriculture is taking a lot of money of the state. Not saying smaller farmers take less than larger ones but they are all on the take. Agriculture is about as much to do with the free market as defence contracts

You got that right; and both the actual farmers and the big corporations are feeding at the gummint trough while they whine about how bad the gummint is.

[laklak]

What has happened here, particularly in the food production industry, is small producers that cannot afford the increased cost of the ludicrous new Federal regulations

Maybe you could be a bit more specific.

Sure. What happened is the USDA did two things, force their HACCP program

So basically you couldn't make it past the food safety regulations.

I have to say that sounds like a failure on your part rather than theirs, considering I'm reading about people dying of Listeria from cantaloupes. Wouldn't take but one of those to put you out of business from a lawsuit. Just sayin'.

Why couldn't you take the meat to 170 or whatever after smoking it?

You could, but it wouldn't be biltong any longer, it would be some sort of smoked meat. Basically, the USDA decided that biltong was no longer legal in the U.S.

If it was actually a food safety issue I wouldn't bitch, but that wasn't the problem. I was in already compliance with all the various Florida regulations and required practices and had the required levels of professional education and licensing. We were inspected quarterly and on a random basis, we never scored under a 98% on any inspection. That one was because I had left a slicer uncleaned after using it, though I would not have used it again without disinfecting it. No sane person would, the potential liability would be enormous.

What put us out of business was the sudden imposition of a hugely expensive level of completely unnecessary regulation. There was no lead in, no time to prepare, just "do it now". New premises, new equipment, new labeling requirements, the necessity to have all products tested in independent labs, the cost of unused office space, etc. It can take upwards of 6 or 8 weeks to get a label approved. Yeah - they have to approve your label. It isn't enough to specify everything from the size of the nutrition info box, the way ingredients are listed, the font, the color, etc - you have to actually submit the label for their approval. In the meantime you can't sell anything, and in a business that sells fresh products that's death.

If their regulations are designed to protect the public, then why did the listeria outbreak occur in the first place? The melons were grown on a farm in Colorado and were USDA inspected. In every major food borne outbreak in recent years, the offending products were already regulated by the USDA. Check this site out.

http://www.foodhaccp.com/outbreak.htm

There is also a level of personal responsibility here. Listeria isn't inside the melon, it's on the skin. Don't slice open the melon without first cleaning it with a chlorine solution. Don't buy pre-cut melons. If you're older or have a compromised immune system, do not eat raw or uncooked meats, don't buy preprocessed foods like hotdogs and make sure you follow the same sort of sanitation procedures that any responsible food producer (like me) does.

[laklak]

What did you do for us all that makes it worth our time to give you a tax credit? Or did you in fact receive some tax credits, and just never bothered to acknowledge them here (far more likely, IMO)?

Nothing, but I didn't claim to. I can't get a tax credit on foreign interest income like GE did, because I don't have a multi-billion dollar overseas operation. That's what the tax credit came from, not because they "did" something for the government.

Yes, you do. First, you want money for nothing from my taxes. Second, you want to not have to deal with fussy regulations that keep you from going out of business due to being sued for making someone sick. Third, you want to be able to make a product that people get sick from and not have to ever know or worry about it.

Well, no, actually. I don't want any money from your taxes. I would certainly appreciate any money you spent on my products, but I don't think you should have to pay for anything other than that. As for fussy regulations, I tried to explain that in my previous post. My products didn't ever make anyone sick, because I was fanatically careful about sanitation. I realize not every company does that, particularly large corporations. Take Ford, for example. Easier to pay out for a few dead people than to fix the Pinto gas tank. I never looked at my customers like expendable wallets.

You wouldn't do it on purpose. But after they sued you, you'd sure bitch about how much they hated you and were fucking you over, and how evil the gummint was for making you pay their medical expenses, which you voted to make private and therefore your responsibility. And how the insurance companies were in a giant conspiracy to put you out of business, too. And never a fucking word about how they'd suffered due to your negligence.

I wouldn't bitch about it. If I hurt someone through my own negligence I'd do whatever I was able to do to rectify the situation. Not all business owners are selfish and greedy, though I've seen plenty that are. But that's why I carried product liability insurance, a 1/5 million policy, meaning 1 million to any single individual and a combined liability of 5 million for any specific incident.

My problem isn't with regulations per se, it's with unnecessary and ineffective regulation that do nothing to enhance public safety.