Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

[charlou]

An interesting point about social welfare, as it applies to helping keep people in work ... without that fall back support, many people would be on a fast track to becoming ineligible as an employable resource, unable to compete in the job market.


... Which takes us back to caring for others .. whether we as a society want to accept responsibility for helping people attain and maintain for themselves at least a minimum standard of living, or just allow and turn a blind eye to those who are falling by the wayside.

[MrJonno]

If you get too many people failing in the market regardless of reasons they don't suddenly work harder or even die then tend to revolt and burn down the market which generally isnt good for anyone. Get too many failing and you can't stop them either hence the welfare state benefits everyone even those not claiming

[charlou]

That too.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Lots of people in the US go out for dinner on Thanksgiving Day. They expect to be served by people who would rather be home than working on a holiday.

In every city I've ever lived in in the U.S., the vast majority of restaurants are closed on Thanksgiving. The ones that are open are mostly family run Chinese restaurants, where the staff would rather have the money.

Odd that, because I've never had trouble finding a restaurant open on Thanksgiving.

[Warren Dew]

Or maybe they simply arent any, plenty of graduates do minimum wage jobs!. Considering there are often 20 people applying for each minimum wage job getting one in the first place isnt exactly easy never mind getting anything better

Ah, okay. Rather different than the U.S., then, where it's still fairly easy for legal residents to find jobs at the low end of the pay scale - up to about twice minimum wage - and it's the mid range jobs that are missing.

However, our social welfare system is different too ... *it subsidises insufficient income for those I mentioned (students, single parents, people between other jobs, etc ... who might work fewer hours, in addition to the minimum rate), with some strict criteria for entitlement, and equally strict cut-off points.

That might explain part of the difference in the employment picture. While one can certainly live on a minimum wage job here, one immediately loses most of one's welfare benefits, at least if one is saving any of one's wages. That discourages people from working unless they can make substantially more than minimum wage.

[MrJonno]

Ah, okay. Rather different than the U.S., then, where it's still fairly easy for legal residents to find jobs at the low end of the pay scale - up to about twice minimum wage - and it's the mid range jobs that are missing.

I think youth unemployment in the US is even higher than it is in the UK (and thats not counting 2% of the workforce in jail), there is no such thing as an easy to get low end paid job

[Coito ergo sum]

An interesting point about social welfare, as it applies to helping keep people in work ... without that fall back support, many people would be on a fast track to becoming ineligible as an employable resource, unable to compete in the job market.


... Which takes us back to caring for others .. whether we as a society want to accept responsibility for helping people attain and maintain for themselves at least a minimum standard of living, or just allow and turn a blind eye to those who are falling by the wayside.

I think most people want to help people attain and maintain for themselves at least a minimum standard of living (after defining what that minimum is). We must temper our desire to help people by giving them things with the knowledge and understanding that we feed a man for a day by giving him a fish. We feed a man for a lifetime by teaching him to fish.

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm not willing to argue from assumption any more. As I said, it would be interesting to find out the differences ... and I mean in reality, not as you and I see them from our biased cultural perspectives.

I'm curious, now - why do some people end up in minimum wage jobs there, if it isn't due to insufficient skill or motivation to get a higher paying job?

Our minimum rates are a bit higher to begin with. Depending on the number of hours worked, minimum wage jobs here provide a livable (not cushy, but certainly not breadline) income, often along with more convenient and flexible hours. Students, single parents, people between other jobs, for example, will still manage okay on a minimum income wage*. However, our social welfare system is different too ... *it subsidises insufficient income for those I mentioned (students, single parents, people between other jobs, etc ... who might work fewer hours, in addition to the minimum rate), with some strict criteria for entitlement, and equally strict cut-off points.

Is the Aussie min. wage really $15.51/hr? Wow - that's more than double the minimum wage here in Florida.

[Coito ergo sum]

I, on the other hand, have greater respect for the restaurant owner who is willing to delegate a greater degree of independence, authority and responsibility to his employees, and less for the owner who wants to keep every penny of the profit for himself by controlling every detail of the transaction and squeezing his employees' compensation to the bare minimum.

Where as I see it as the restaurant owner keeping as much profit as they can get away with for themselves, squeezing their employees' compensation to the bare minimum (which is far less than a living income - this is the rub, the key difference here), and forcing their employees to hustle for more money from the restaurant owners' customers.

I don't think that is fair to say, since in the US waiters and waitresses income is far higher than the minimum wage, generally speaking. Tips can't be ignored as part of income, if a fair comparison is to be made.

[Coito ergo sum]

What I object to even more is that the waiter has to rely on what Seth refers to as "in essence, an independent contractor who serves food for an unnegotiated amount of compensation that depends on the judgment of the customer and his willingness to pay for good service."

You can't take that statement out of context.

It's not wholly unnegotiated. There are cultural norms that apply, which ought not be ignored. When people go to restaurants in the U.S., they expect to pay 15% tip on top of the bill that is ordered. That's implied. If the service is poor - it drops to about 10%, and if it really really really sucks, then it goes to 5% or 0%. Really good service goes to 20% and up.

Do some small minority of people skip their customary tip obligation? Sure, but there are also a minority of people, like myself, who routinely overtip. I and some others tip not only on the bill, but also on the tax. So, my minimum tip is 15% of total bill plus tax, which results in a typically higher tip. It doesn't take much for me to leave 20%, and last Saturday I left a 40% tip because the meal and the service was wonderful.

Just because the system doesn't require everyone to always pay the same, and just because the system relies in part on the customer's assessment of quality of service, does not invalidate the system or make it unfair. The reality is that the income of wait staff under this system involving a tipping custom is far higher than it would be if they earned minimum wage.

[MattShizzle]

Ah, okay. Rather different than the U.S., then, where it's still fairly easy for legal residents to find jobs at the low end of the pay scale - up to about twice minimum wage - and it's the mid range jobs that are missing.

WHAT??? I hardly know anyone who makes "twice minimum wage" or more. Most I ever made was just over $11/hr and that included 3rd shift 50 cent differential - with a 4 yr degree.

[Coito ergo sum]

Ah, okay. Rather different than the U.S., then, where it's still fairly easy for legal residents to find jobs at the low end of the pay scale - up to about twice minimum wage - and it's the mid range jobs that are missing.

WHAT??? I hardly know anyone who makes "twice minimum wage" or more. Most I ever made was just over $11/hr and that included 3rd shift 50 cent differential - with a 4 yr degree.

I don't know any college graduate that doesn't make at least twice minimum wage.

You want more than a pittance $11 an hour? Get a job as a bartender: http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Bartende ... a,-FL.html

and there is an opening at Joe's Crab Shack: https://joescrabshackjobs.clickandhire. ... &jobNo=187

The bartender mixes and serves alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks following restaurant’s specifications. Serves food and drinks to guests in a courteous and timely manner.

Hourly Team Member Benefits
Medical
Dental
Prescription Drug
Vision
Life
Vacation Time Off
Employee Discount Program
40% discount on all retail merchandise
50% discount for themselves and up to five guests at any Joe’s Crab Shack restaurant.
Unlimited complimentary coffee, tea, and soft drinks during working hours.

What sort of career are you in that you are treated so shoddily that a bartender at a seafood restaurant in Florida gets paid more than you?

[MattShizzle]

I'm disabled and on SSI now. I couldn't do that sort of thing as I can't be on my feet more than about 15 minutes at a time.

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm disabled and on SSI now. I couldn't do that sort of thing as I can't be on my feet more than about 15 minutes at a time.

O.k. - I had thought you mentioned you were working for $11 an hour. If you're not working because of a disability, then I wouldn't expect that you could work jobs you are physically unable to work.

[MrJonno]

Find it weird you think getting a bar tender job is easy?

It's a high responsible relatively complex job, careless in serving underage people in the UK and your bar will be shut down and believe the US is even stricter on that.

Get the impression some people think if you go around your local high street handing out your CV someone will say go nice initiative here's a job when these days hiring someone you don't know of the streets is something that simply something that make have happened in the 1950's but is quite alien in the day of human resources departments.