Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

[laklak]

Most of those additional 'taxes' are payment for services or even products, I would guess you would have to drink a lot of alcohol and fags to get up to 70%.

In New York City, you could easily pay 35% federal income tax, 15% self employment tax, 7% state income tax, 3% city income tax, 4% state sales tax, and 5% city sales tax. That comes to 64% even before alcohol or cigarettes.

This was also before the Bush tax cuts, I was in the 39% bracket. It was a 1099 thing, so I was paying the full self-employment. You also have to factor in property taxes, even if you're renting, as that's going to be included in the rent. One way or another they were going to take 70 cents of every dollar I earned. It wasn't worth it, even if I could get good sushi at 4 AM.

[charlou]

Here's a question ... Are the meals cheaper at restaurants where the staff work for tips? Here, restaurant staff wages are part of the cost of dining out, and there's no obligation to tip them as well.

I'm not sure, as I've not eaten in Australia.

But, wouldn't the better question be - do servers, by and large, get more money in their pocket where there are no tips, or where tipping is the custom?

Very hard to answer that serve in a cafe and you tips could well be no more than a couple of pounds/dollars a day, serve in a 5 star restaurant and someone wants to leave you £5000 as a tip which happens every so often then you are going to be glad of tips.

Tips should be seen as a bonus to a reasonable wage not your main income

I tend to agree, coming from a culture that has taken a different pragmatic approach to employment, cost of living and social welfare issues.

Coming from that same culture, I as a diner, want to pay for a meal where the restaurant owner values the customer as much as their own profit. An owner who abdicates responsibility for that, leaving it entirely to some precarious manipulative transaction between the customer and their staff, doesn't care about me, the customer... only their profit margin.

[charlou]

As a diner, I don't want to have to engage in some unwritten and unspoken money game with the staff ... I just want a meal, I want to know how much it will cost me, and that it will be good quality. I don't want to eat where business owners value their staff less than those who eat their meals do. I want to eat where the staff are working for the business, not kissing my arse in a manipulative effort to extract the most money from me .. I would rather pay more for a meal elsewhere, and if I want to tip, I will ... not because it's obligatory.

Unless you've been part of a culture where valuing employees is as important as valuing customers in a successful business, you may not get where I'm coming from.

[Hermit]

What I object to even more is that the waiter has to rely on what Seth refers to as "in essence, an independent contractor who serves food for an unnegotiated amount of compensation that depends on the judgment of the customer and his willingness to pay for good service."

[Warren Dew]

Coming from that same culture, I as a diner, want to pay for a meal where the restaurant owner values the customer as much as their own profit. An owner who abdicates responsibility for that, leaving it entirely to some precarious manipulative transaction between the customer and their staff, doesn't care about me, the customer... only their profit margin.

I, on the other hand, have greater respect for the restaurant owner who is willing to delegate a greater degree of independence, authority and responsibility to his employees, and less for the owner who wants to keep every penny of the profit for himself by controlling every detail of the transaction and squeezing his employees' compensation to the bare minimum.

[charlou]

I, on the other hand, have greater respect for the restaurant owner who is willing to delegate a greater degree of independence, authority and responsibility to his employees, and less for the owner who wants to keep every penny of the profit for himself by controlling every detail of the transaction and squeezing his employees' compensation to the bare minimum.

Where as I see it as the restaurant owner keeping as much profit as they can get away with for themselves, squeezing their employees' compensation to the bare minimum (which is far less than a living income - this is the rub, the key difference here), and forcing their employees to hustle for more money from the restaurant owners' customers.

[Warren Dew]

Where as I see it as the restaurant owner keeping as much profit as they can get away with for themselves, squeezing their employees' compensation to the bare minimum (which is far less than a living income - this is the rub, the key difference here), and forcing their employees to hustle for more money from the restaurant owners' customers.

As far as a "living wage" is concerned, it seems to me the "key difference" is that waiters make substantially more money in a system with tips than in a system without them.

[charlou]

Where as I see it as the restaurant owner keeping as much profit as they can get away with for themselves, squeezing their employees' compensation to the bare minimum (which is far less than a living income - this is the rub, the key difference here), and forcing their employees to hustle for more money from the restaurant owners' customers.

As far as a "living wage" is concerned, it seems to me the "key difference" is that waiters make substantially more money in a system with tips than in a system without them.

It would be interesting to find out the difference, if any, in monetary terms, across the board (employers, employees and customers) between each country, actually.

On that note, it would be interesting to find out the difference, if any, in the overall standard of living, and the difference in the standard of living of those who are on low incomes .. in each country.

[Warren Dew]

It would be interesting to find out the difference, if any, in monetary terms, across the board (employers, employees and customers) between each country, actually.

On that note, it would be interesting to find out the difference, if any, in the overall standard of living, and the difference in the standard of living of those who are on low incomes .. in each country.

I suspect that wait staff from the two countries draw from different demographics, anyway. It sounds like your wait staff have minimum wage jobs, which means they are insufficiently skilled or insufficiently motivated to get higher paying jobs. In the U.S., the equivalent jobs are probably not so much wait staff as, say, fast food employees, who don't get tips and are paid minimum wage or somewhat above.

With a few exceptions, wait staff positions in the U.S. tend to draw motivated, competent individuals who prefer part time hours for other reasons. The exceptions are places like hotel subsidized restaurants that don't have enough traffic to attract good waiters.

[charlou]

It would be interesting to find out the difference, if any, in monetary terms, across the board (employers, employees and customers) between each country, actually.

On that note, it would be interesting to find out the difference, if any, in the overall standard of living, and the difference in the standard of living of those who are on low incomes .. in each country.

I suspect that wait staff from the two countries draw from different demographics, anyway. It sounds like your wait staff have minimum wage jobs, which means they are insufficiently skilled or insufficiently motivated to get higher paying jobs. In the U.S., the equivalent jobs are probably not so much wait staff as, say, fast food employees, who don't get tips and are paid minimum wage or somewhat above.

With a few exceptions, wait staff positions in the U.S. tend to draw motivated, competent individuals who prefer part time hours for other reasons. The exceptions are places like hotel subsidized restaurants that don't have enough traffic to attract good waiters.

re the bit I've bolded .. Well, you've fallen at your first assumption there.

I'm not willing to argue from assumption any more. As I said, it would be interesting to find out the differences ... and I mean in reality, not as you and I see them from our biased cultural perspectives.

[Warren Dew]

I'm not willing to argue from assumption any more. As I said, it would be interesting to find out the differences ... and I mean in reality, not as you and I see them from our biased cultural perspectives.

I'm curious, now - why do some people end up in minimum wage jobs there, if it isn't due to insufficient skill or motivation to get a higher paying job?

[MrJonno]

I'm not willing to argue from assumption any more. As I said, it would be interesting to find out the differences ... and I mean in reality, not as you and I see them from our biased cultural perspectives.

I'm curious, now - why do some people end up in minimum wage jobs there, if it isn't due to insufficient skill or motivation to get a higher paying job?

Or maybe they simply arent any, plenty of graduates do minimum wage jobs!. Considering there are often 20 people applying for each minimum wage job getting one in the first place isnt exactly easy never mind getting anything better

[charlou]

I'm not willing to argue from assumption any more. As I said, it would be interesting to find out the differences ... and I mean in reality, not as you and I see them from our biased cultural perspectives.

I'm curious, now - why do some people end up in minimum wage jobs there, if it isn't due to insufficient skill or motivation to get a higher paying job?

Our minimum rates are a bit higher to begin with. Depending on the number of hours worked, minimum wage jobs here provide a livable (not cushy, but certainly not breadline) income, often along with more convenient and flexible hours. Students, single parents, people between other jobs, for example, will still manage okay on a minimum income wage*. However, our social welfare system is different too ... *it subsidises insufficient income for those I mentioned (students, single parents, people between other jobs, etc ... who might work fewer hours, in addition to the minimum rate), with some strict criteria for entitlement, and equally strict cut-off points.

[JimC]

Warren Dew wrote:

It sounds like your wait staff have minimum wage jobs, which means they are insufficiently skilled or insufficiently motivated to get higher paying jobs. In the U.S., the equivalent jobs are probably not so much wait staff as, say, fast food employees, who don't get tips and are paid minimum wage or somewhat above.

There would be quite a spectrum, from waitresses at a basic country town cafe (perhaps like your diners...) up to service staff in very snooty restaurants indeed. Particularly Melbourne, which is the fine dining capital of Australia. But I digress...

There seems to be a misapprehension here. Tipping does occur in Oz, just not as much on a totally expected basis, and with the context of (probably) a somewhat higher (in relative terms) actual wage. Allowing for general relativity in prices and wages between the countries, I would expect the total renumeration for similar positions (eg. an experienced waiter in a classy restaurant) to earn about the same, with tips still being at least a valued component here, if perhaps not quite as vital as in the US...

[charlou]

I'm not willing to argue from assumption any more. As I said, it would be interesting to find out the differences ... and I mean in reality, not as you and I see them from our biased cultural perspectives.

I'm curious, now - why do some people end up in minimum wage jobs there, if it isn't due to insufficient skill or motivation to get a higher paying job?

Or maybe they simply arent any, plenty of graduates do minimum wage jobs!. Considering there are often 20 people applying for each minimum wage job getting one in the first place isnt exactly easy never mind getting anything better

Yes! Competition is a factor here, too.

The general health of the economy has a huge effect on that, of course.