Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

[MrJonno]

Here's a question ... Are the meals cheaper at restaurants where the staff work for tips? Here, restaurant staff wages are part of the cost of dining out, and there's no obligation to tip them as well.

I'm not sure, as I've not eaten in Australia.

But, wouldn't the better question be - do servers, by and large, get more money in their pocket where there are no tips, or where tipping is the custom?

Very hard to answer that serve in a cafe and you tips could well be no more than a couple of pounds/dollars a day, serve in a 5 star restaurant and someone wants to leave you £5000 as a tip which happens every so often then you are going to be glad of tips.

Tips should be seen as a bonus to a reasonable wage not your main income

[Coito ergo sum]

Here's a question ... Are the meals cheaper at restaurants where the staff work for tips? Here, restaurant staff wages are part of the cost of dining out, and there's no obligation to tip them as well.

I'm not sure, as I've not eaten in Australia.

But, wouldn't the better question be - do servers, by and large, get more money in their pocket where there are no tips, or where tipping is the custom?

Very hard to answer that serve in a cafe and you tips could well be no more than a couple of pounds/dollars a day, serve in a 5 star restaurant and someone wants to leave you £5000 as a tip which happens every so often then you are going to be glad of tips.

Tips should be seen as a bonus to a reasonable wage not your main income

That sidesteps the issue. Clearly, we all know that some servers earn less than others just like some mechanics earn less than other mechanics. The question is, overall, to servers do better financially under a tipped system or a non-tipped system. Implicit in the idea of demanding that servers receive a minimum wage, is that that would improve their lot. If it won't, then what are people advocating that position for?

From everything I've heard from European and Australian folks here, US servers are NOT downtrodden in comparison to Euro and Austro servers. In fact, it appears from the numbers people have quoted, that American servers may actually bring home more money on average than Euro and Austro servers. Why would one advocate that servers make less?

[MrJonno]

That sidesteps the issue. Clearly, we all know that some servers earn less than others just like some mechanics earn less than other mechanics. The question is, overall, to servers do better financially under a tipped system or a non-tipped system. Implicit in the idea of demanding that servers receive a minimum wage, is that that would improve their lot. If it won't, then what are people advocating that position for?

From everything I've heard from European and Australian folks here, US servers are NOT downtrodden in comparison to Euro and Austro servers. In fact, it appears from the numbers people have quoted, that American servers may actually bring home more money on average than Euro and Austro servers. Why would one advocate that servers make less?

Not sure anyone anyone has claimed an American doing the same job as somewhere else gets paid less (wages are like 10-15% higher than Europe and taxes lower) through with lack of medical insurance and little government wage assistance for the low payed I doubt if they are any better off.

I also don't know of any countries culture that doesnt have some form of tipping system its just its often shared between all staff or is included as a service charge.

At the moment you are lucky to have a job doing anything anywhere in the 1st world

[Coito ergo sum]

That sidesteps the issue. Clearly, we all know that some servers earn less than others just like some mechanics earn less than other mechanics. The question is, overall, to servers do better financially under a tipped system or a non-tipped system. Implicit in the idea of demanding that servers receive a minimum wage, is that that would improve their lot. If it won't, then what are people advocating that position for?

From everything I've heard from European and Australian folks here, US servers are NOT downtrodden in comparison to Euro and Austro servers. In fact, it appears from the numbers people have quoted, that American servers may actually bring home more money on average than Euro and Austro servers. Why would one advocate that servers make less?

Not sure anyone anyone has claimed an American doing the same job as somewhere else gets paid less (wages are like 10-15% higher than Europe and taxes lower)

Proof? In the US, the tax is 15% for income range $8,500 to $34,500 for individuals, and $17,000 to $69,000 for joint returns. The actual amount paid is reduced after that with deductions and credits. 25% taxes are applied to $34,500 to about $83,000 for individuals, and $69,000 to $139,500 for couples filing jointly, again reduced with deductions and credits, etc.

What are the rates in Europe?

And, what's the average wage for a server in Europe?

through with lack of medical insurance and little government wage assistance for the low payed I doubt if they are any better off.

Who says they lack medical insurance? 85% of people in the US are covered by medical insurance.

I also don't know of any countries culture that doesnt have some form of tipping system its just its often shared between all staff or is included as a service charge.

In the US it's generally kept by the waiter/waitress himself or herself, and if it's split it can only be split among other tipped employees, like the entire wait staff.

[MrJonno]

Proof? In the US, the tax is 15% for income range $8,500 to $34,500 for individuals, and $17,000 to $69,000 for joint returns. The actual amount paid is reduced after that with deductions and credits. 25% taxes are applied to $34,500 to about $83,000 for individuals, and $69,000 to $139,500 for couples filing jointly, again reduced with deductions and credits, etc.

No common tax policies in Europe but those US tax rates vary from quite a bit lower to wow I can't believe a country can function on such low tax rate. Its roughly 33% to 100% higher levels of taxes so for example the US low rater of 15% would be 20% to 30% throughout Europe. More important than rates is actually the tax bands. Current UK tax bands are 0%, 20% ,40% and 50%. Few very people pay the 50% and too many 40%, why there is such a jump between 20 and 40 is something I've never understood and I'm sure a sensible government could introduce a 30% rate that was tax neutral.

Sales tax (VAT) is 20% but is not paid on basics like food , childrens clothes and books but does get charged on tampons for some reason


Can't speak about the rest of Europe but there is very little tax deduction and credit in the UK, you earn money you pay taxes unless you are rich and have lots of investments. Most Brit's sole income of any signficance is their wage or pension. I have only ever been in contact once in my entire life with the tax office and they told me they required no information of me (I earn above but not exceptionly so average wages)

Generally if you think you taxes are high in the US you quite simply have never worked abroad

[Coito ergo sum]

Proof? In the US, the tax is 15% for income range $8,500 to $34,500 for individuals, and $17,000 to $69,000 for joint returns. The actual amount paid is reduced after that with deductions and credits. 25% taxes are applied to $34,500 to about $83,000 for individuals, and $69,000 to $139,500 for couples filing jointly, again reduced with deductions and credits, etc.

No common tax policies in Europe but those US tax rates vary from quite a bit lower to wow I can't believe a country can function on such low tax rate. Its roughly 33% to 100% higher levels of taxes so for example the US low rater of 15% would be 20% to 30% throughout Europe.

Note the income ranges. We're talking lower income people paying 15% and below that, no income tax is paid. Are you saying the "progressive" Europe taxes people making $25,000 or $30,000 a year more than 15% of their income?

More important than rates is actually the tax bands. Current UK tax bands are 0%, 20% ,40% and 50%. Few very people pay the 50% and too many 40%, why there is such a jump between 20 and 40 is something I've never understood and I'm sure a sensible government could introduce a 30% rate that was tax neutral.

So, you do have some folks paying 0% - what income range is that?

Sales tax (VAT) is 20% but is not paid on basics like food , childrens clothes and books but does get charged on tampons for some reason

Can't speak about the rest of Europe but there is very little tax deduction and credit in the UK, you earn money you pay taxes unless you are rich and have lots of investments. Most Brit's sole income of any signficance is their wage or pension. I have only ever been in contact once in my entire life with the tax office and they told me they required no information of me (I earn above but not exceptionly so average wages)

Generally if you think you taxes are high in the US you quite simply have never worked abroad

High is a relative term, and just because your rates are much higher than ours doesn't make ours "low," and it doesn't make your rates objectively reasonable.

But, in any case, if servers in the US earning tips (a) make more money per hour on average, and (b) pay out less of it in taxes, then it seems to me that to suggest that it is OUR servers who aren't being paid enough doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[MrJonno]

Note the income ranges. We're talking lower income people paying 15% and below that, no income tax is paid. Are you saying the "progressive" Europe taxes people making $25,000 or $30,000 a year more than 15% of their income?

Can't comment on the rest of Europe but yes, you have a tax allowance of about £7000/$10k and you pay no tax on that , after that up to about £37000/$52k ish its 20%

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm

Generally the UK is considered a low tax economy compared to the rest of Europe so I would assume other countries are higher

From wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... age_of_GDP

UK taxation as a % of GDP 34-39% depending on figures
US 24-26%

UK taxation is roughly 50% higher than the US

[laklak]

Well, there's income tax, then social security, then Medicare tax, then capital gains, then inheritance tax, then gas (petrol) tax, tobacco tax, alcohol tax, cell phone tax, cable TV tax, and a few others I've forgotten, and that's just on a Federal level. Then you may have state income tax (fuck, even CITY income tax in New York), more fuel and alcohol and tobacco and cell phone and cable and hotel room taxes, road tolls, sales taxes, property taxes, stamp duties, and a few more I've forgotten.

I was once offered a very, very high paid job in New York City. I calculated that after all the various direct and indirect taxes I'd have to pay to live there, I'd be paying almost 70% of my income in one form of tax or another. I didn't take the job, needless to say, and moved to Florida which has one of the lowest overall tax rates in the country.

While not all taxation is theft, 70% of your income is fucking grand larceny.

EDIT - but hey, somebody has to pay to clean up after the OWS protesters, eh?

[MrJonno]

Most of those additional 'taxes' are payment for services or even products, I would guess you would have to drink a lot of alcohol and fags to get up to 70%.
Through in your case that could be possible

[charlou]

Here's a question ... Are the meals cheaper at restaurants where the staff work for tips? Here, restaurant staff wages are part of the cost of dining out, and there's no obligation to tip them as well.

I'm not sure, as I've not eaten in Australia.

But, wouldn't the better question be - do servers, by and large, get more money in their pocket where there are no tips, or where tipping is the custom?

That's not the angle I'm coming from, though.

I'm asking, compared with what diners in Australia pay, is it more expensive for a diner in the US to eat at a restaurant where wages are low and tips are expected to be given (US restaurants) because the price of the meal is the same as it is in a restaurant where wages are higher and tips are not expected/optional (Australian restaurants). Or are US restaurant meals comparitively less expensive than in Australian restaurants?

To put it another way, does the fact that, compared to Australian restaurants, US restaurants don't pay their staff much (with the expectation the staff will make money in tips) mean that menu prices are cheaper to the consumer, who has to then make up the difference in tips?

[Seth]

I'm asking, compared with what diners in Australia pay, is it more expensive for a diner in the US to eat at a restaurant where wages are low and tips are expected to be given (US restaurants) because the price of the meal is the same as it is in a restaurant where wages are higher and tips are not expected/optional (Australian restaurants). Or are US restaurant meals comparitively less expensive than in Australian restaurants?

To put it another way, does the fact that, compared to Australian restaurants, US restaurants don't pay their staff much (with the expectation the staff will make money in tips) mean that menu prices are cheaper to the consumer, who has to then make up the difference in tips?

It's somewhat complex because in a relatively free market such as the US restaurant market, the interactions are not simple. The restaurant owner has to set the food prices to reflect his costs plus some profit. When the costs of labor are reduced, as they are where minimum wages for servers are low, the owner can be more competitive by keeping his food prices low, which attracts more customers. At the same time, the cost of the meal is increased by the need to tip, but the difference is that the customer gets to choose whether or not to pay that extra price based on the quality of the service. This shifts the cost (and reward) of the labor from the restaurant owner to the customer while at the same time shifting the burden of providing service worthy of a tip to the server, who becomes, in essence, an independent contractor who serves food for an unnegotiated amount of compensation that depends on the judgment of the customer and his willingness to pay for good service.

So it's hard to tell if there is any absolute difference involved because where there is no tipping, the costs of labor (and the cost of the meal) are generally higher or the quality of service are generally lower. Depending on how you define "server" under the minimum wage laws, people don't ordinarily tip, for example, the counter person at Subway who makes their sandwich and brings it to the register or the fast-food jockey who hands them a hamburger. If they are defined as "servers" and get a low minimum wage, then the business owner benefits and so does the customer, while the employee loses out. But I don't generally think this is the case.

[charlou]

That's a helpful response. Thanks, Seth.

[Warren Dew]

Most of those additional 'taxes' are payment for services or even products, I would guess you would have to drink a lot of alcohol and fags to get up to 70%.

In New York City, you could easily pay 35% federal income tax, 15% self employment tax, 7% state income tax, 3% city income tax, 4% state sales tax, and 5% city sales tax. That comes to 64% even before alcohol or cigarettes.

[Warren Dew]

Lots of people in the US go out for dinner on Thanksgiving Day. They expect to be served by people who would rather be home than working on a holiday.

In every city I've ever lived in in the U.S., the vast majority of restaurants are closed on Thanksgiving. The ones that are open are mostly family run Chinese restaurants, where the staff would rather have the money.

[Warren Dew]

An attractive but unfriendly waitress will earn far more than any bloke regardless of charm

All the high end restaurants I've been to have had waiters rather than waitresses. Perhaps their clientele is not as sexist as you seem to think.