Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

[Rum]

It is utter rubbish to say we have religious indoctrination in our school here in the UK. We have religion lessons and assemblies. There is a legal duty to hold an observance, but children are not indoctrinated in the slightest.

The first rule of indoctrination club is to deny indoctrination...

In all seriousness, the discussions here have of late had a tendency to become so strident and hyperbolic they cease to be fun. People take a stance and exaggerate their position to the point where it becomes utterly ridiculous. That's one reason I don't often get involved in the so called 'serious' threads any more.

I know schools professionally. Catholic and C of E schools could perhaps be accused of a religious focus but even they do not 'indoctrinate' these days. Catholic schools certainly did in the past. State schools (the majority by a long way) certainly do not. Their RE (religious education) lessons consist mostly of comparative religion and morality (putting aside the issue of morality and religion for the moment).

Incidentally, it is perhaps paradoxical to some that Catholic schools here have on the whole, far better exam results, followed by C of E schools and then- trailing some way - state schools.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It is utter rubbish to say we have religious indoctrination in our school here in the UK. We have religion lessons and assemblies. There is a legal duty to hold an observance, but children are not indoctrinated in the slightest.

Really? (That's a serious question.)

I kind of jumped at the words "the slightest" - so I would also like to hear how Rum justifies that. (and sorry Rum if you have already answered that, I have not read the whole thread yet)

That's the part that buzzed my brain, Ronja.

[Exi5tentialist]

I'd suggest the power of religion doesn't lie in the structure of the state. It lies in cultural assumptions underpinning the configuration of capitalism. In that respect this close alliance is perfectly understandable.

How so? Explain.

[Exi5tentialist]

Ironically, Brits are not 40% believers in creation and a 6000 yo Earth and the book of Revelation as a prediction of imminent end of days so let's make decisions to fulfill that prophesy

But we have a non-secular state, and religious indoctrination in our schools. Why are we Brits so enlightened? Surely we should all be parroting out what our RE teachers told us?

First you'll need to establish that "Brits are so enlightened." I leave you to your proofs.

Only enlightened relative to the US surveys on religious belief. Given that the US is a 'secular state' you'd have thought the survey results would be the other way round, wouldn't you?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'd suggest the power of religion doesn't lie in the structure of the state. It lies in cultural assumptions underpinning the configuration of capitalism. In that respect this close alliance is perfectly understandable.

How so? Explain.

That would spoil it.

[Exi5tentialist]

That would spoil it.

How did I know you wouldn't dare engage in a serious conversation? I just knew.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

That would spoil it.

How did I know you wouldn't dare engage in a serious conversation? I just knew.

The fun part is you don't even realize what I'm doing. And probably never will.

[Ian]

That would spoil it.

How did I know you wouldn't dare engage in a serious conversation? I just knew.

The fun part is you don't even realize what I'm doing. And probably never will.

I realize it. 'Cuz I'm enlightened.

[Exi5tentialist]

That would spoil it.

How did I know you wouldn't dare engage in a serious conversation? I just knew.

The fun part is you don't even realize what I'm doing. And probably never will.

No, I don't realize what you're doing. I have been focusing on having a conversation about religion in schools, I haven't really been thinking about your snide posts, so I'm sure you're right in your own small way.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

[Exi5tentialist]

Incidentally, it is perhaps paradoxical to some that Catholic schools here have on the whole, far better exam results, followed by C of E schools and then- trailing some way - state schools.

I wonder if it's a class thing. Are Catholic schools better represented by fee-payers, followed by the C of E, followed by the State?

[Coito ergo sum]

Ironically, Brits are not 40% believers in creation and a 6000 yo Earth and the book of Revelation as a prediction of imminent end of days so let's make decisions to fulfill that prophesy

But we have a non-secular state, and religious indoctrination in our schools. Why are we Brits so enlightened? Surely we should all be parroting out what our RE teachers told us?

First you'll need to establish that "Brits are so enlightened." I leave you to your proofs.

Only enlightened relative to the US surveys on religious belief. Given that the US is a 'secular state' you'd have thought the survey results would be the other way round, wouldn't you?

No. That would only be the case if you assume that people left free to think whatever religious thoughts they like will naturally choose to be non-religious or secular. A secular government, however, doesn't mean that the people themselves won't organize around religious or other belief systems.

[Exi5tentialist]

No. That would only be the case if you assume that people left free to think whatever religious thoughts they like will naturally choose to be non-religious or secular. A secular government, however, doesn't mean that the people themselves won't organize around religious or other belief systems.

So it doesn't really matter what people are taught in schools, then? They don't automatically swallow the 'indoctrination'.

[Coito ergo sum]

Your post indicates to have not read what I wrote. I am in favour of introducing students to the concept of free speech. You seem to think I am advocate absolute free speech in schools all the time. Please could you read my posts again, and re-work your post on the basis of what I have actually said. Thank you.

You asked me if I'm in favor of free speech in schools. Of course I'm not, not totally free - and not even mostly free.

I am, of course, open to the idea of teaching children government, civics, history, etc., and the idea of "free speech" would certainly be expected to come up in those curricula.

[Exi5tentialist]

Your post indicates to have not read what I wrote. I am in favour of introducing students to the concept of free speech. You seem to think I am advocate absolute free speech in schools all the time. Please could you read my posts again, and re-work your post on the basis of what I have actually said. Thank you.

You asked me if I'm in favor of free speech in schools. Of course I'm not, not totally free - and not even mostly free.

I am, of course, open to the idea of teaching children government, civics, history, etc., and the idea of "free speech" would certainly be expected to come up in those curricula.

Good then we are in agreement. School students hearing a variety of messages from different religions would fall nicely within that criterion; in fact censoring them would be the antithesis of free speech; again, we both agree on 'limited' free speech in schools.