Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

[Pappa]

I wouldn't mind at all if visiting priests/rabbis/sheikhs/etc. came to the school to talk about their religion and beliefs. Potentially, it could be a lot more instructive than leaving it to a teacher (at primary level). However, in order to make it useful and non-indoctrinatory, I think it would need to be done in a way that presented multiple religions together. Perhaps having a representative of each of the world's six largest religions come in to give a half-hour talk each week for six weeks in a row.

Currently, primary school children here do learn about a selection of religions, but there is a heavy emphasis on Christianity almost all the time, with one special project being done each year about one of the other major religions. A couple of years ago, for example, my son visited a Hindu temple with the school and the spent the week learning about Hindu festivals, etc.. The quality of the (comparative) education about other religions seems very good, but they do use a volunteer evangelical minister to do a lot of their Christian RE, and I do find it a concern that an evangelical is being given free access to a captive audience of kids who's parents are completely unaware of that.

[Exi5tentialist]

I think our society is strongly structured according to the religious principles of mainstream organised christianity: patriarchy, authority, fear and blind obedience are mainstays of capitalism and these principles are intimately connected to christianity.

This is true. Our erstwhile Prime Minister, John Howard, is of the same opinion, and he thinks that this is a good thing. "I […] regard the Judaeo-Christian influence on Australia as the single greatest influence for good in the Australian community. […] My belief in the centrality of the family, my very strong belief in private business enterprise, my very strong belief in the I think the stabilising influence of the Judaeo-Christian ethic in this country.(2004)." To him religious indoctrination (of the christian variety) is desirable, not despite the judeo-christian values it inculcates in young minds, but because of it. Most of religious "studies" in Australian government schools are of that variety on account of most instructors being outsourced, as it were. In Queensland, Victoria and Western Australia in particular, some denominations pay the salaries of church representatives who work in the government schools as full time chaplains. They are not formal members of the government school teaching service, but in effect they are full time staff members. Here we are not looking at religious studies, but at religious indoctrination.

As if this were not bad enough, Howard introduced the National School Chaplaincy Program (NSCP). It was financed to the tune of 90 million dollars for the first three years, and further funding was made available under succeeding Prime Ministers. Last year our incumbent PM allocated another $220 million to the project. The NSCP is charged with the task of providing students with spiritual guidance and helping them with get through extracurricular difficulties such as drug addiction, depression or family problems. For some reason, the main accredited organisations are christian and of a proselytising bent, such as Access Ministries (Victoria), GenR8 (New South Wales), the Scripture Union (the ACT, Queensland and Tasmania), Schools Ministry Group (South Australia), and YouthCARE (Western Australia).

To give you an idea of what their principal aims are, check these excerpts from a speech given by Access Ministry's CEO at a conference. She said that the chaplaincy program, to which her organisation supplied 97% of staff in Victoria's government schools, is an "extraordinary opportunity to reach kids, with the good news about Jesus... Under God, many come to faith. Some find their way to church. What really matters is seizing the God-given opportunity we have to reach kids in schools. Without Jesus, our students are lost." In case that didn't make things clear enough, she added: "Churches in the West are on a slow death march. We have the opportunity to create life… What a commandment, make disciples. What a responsibility. What a privilege we have been given. Let's go for it." Their website commented: "Follow Jesus and fish for people...we celebrate people who have been fishing…Some putting a little time aside in their week to teach [Scripture], for others putting whole careers aside to become chaplains." The other organisations are of similar vein.

Of course the "spiritual guidance" project at Australian government schools is not to be confused with religious studies, but much of the personnel engaged in the former, is also involved with the latter. "Religious studies" in Australian schools is increasingly becoming a cover for proselytisation, and I do not think that is a good thing. I don't want it any more than, say, crusaders campaigning for the adoption of the stork theory of procreation in biology, Eve being a result of rib surgery on Adam's body in evolution, intelligent falling in physics, or any other dogmatic advocacy by those absolutist zealots. Unlike them, science teachers don't represent their subject matter as The Truth. They tend to be quite upfront that scientific theories are amended, discarded or superseded in time.

There is unacceptable religious involvement in schools and acceptable religious involvement in schools. It is not surprising that there is a lot of unacceptable involvement, but the a six-week programme of visiting speakers from different religions seems to get round the possibility of proselytizing. Even if one or more of the speakers used their half-hour session to preselytize, I hardly think it is going to have much impact, as the overwhelming effect of such a programme would be to educate children that there is an awful lot of conflicting mumbo-jumbo out there.

[Robert_S]

Perhaps visiting religious people should share the stage and discuss the differences and similarities of their religions, along with an atheist or two.

What is important to me is official neutrality and I'm still skeptical that setting aside any time at all to religion would not end up endorsing it.

[charlou]

Exi5, you seem to be responding to Pappa's post there with your comment about the six week course.

For me, it doesn't matter what the arrangement is purported to be, proselytisation is not acceptable in schools, imo ... And not just religious proselytisation .. Any other agenda driven ideologist can fuck off too.

[Hermit]

a six-week programme of visiting speakers from different religions seems to get round the possibility of proselytizing.

That would certainly be a big improvement on what is currently happening in Australia, where the federal government is throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at organisations bent on proselytizing in government schools.

Meanwhile, we seem to be getting away from discussing the alien rubbish taught in faith schools.

[Exi5tentialist]

Exi5, you seem to be responding to Pappa's post there with your comment about the six week course.

For me, it doesn't matter what the arrangement is purported to be, proselytisation is not acceptable in schools, imo ... And not just religious proselytisation .. Any other agenda driven ideologist can fuck off too.

In the real world, people proselytise. Why should children be protected from it? Surely the best way to educate them is to present it to them in a controlled way and get them to recognise it, so they're less vulnerable to it when it hits them in the face at election time, or in sales promotions. I think it would be a damn good idea to let marxists, conservatives and existentialists into schools to deliver their messages. Schools are dull places at the moment, and they're not doing very well overall. They seem to be run on the principle that we must anaesthetize children from the real world outside, then we wonder why they get bored.

[charlou]

I'd prefer to perk them up with sex and drugs and rock and roll ... but that's just me.

[Ronja]

Charlou and Exi5, I guess I should thank you guys, because these two posts jolted my memory:

In order for evil to flourish, it is only necessary for Ronja to take everything at face value.

I was most amused by the irony.

Did anyone else understand these comments? I didn't.

Yes, I understood them.

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0#p1004779

Aye, likewise.

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0#p1004781

and I realized what those^^ sounded like: secondary school bullies, as I experienced them: having secrets, a shared code and/or pretending to understand each other for the purpose of looking "cool" and shutting others out. Labeling some as "preferred" and others as an embarrassing "nightmare" to have among one's acquaintances. Pretending to be interested or engaging the "nightmares" in discussion just to get a chance to get in yet another dig.

Now that is not my kind of game. I lost at it when I was ten, twelve, fourteen - I'm pretty sure I would loose again. And I'm even more sure I would not like who I would need to become to have a chance of winning. A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

Therefore: happy bye bye, Exi5 and Charlou - I'm foeing you both, before your behavior towards me starts to resemble Draco and Narcissa Malfoy even more.

Go bully someone else, preferably on another forum.

[Atheist-Lite]

Charlou and Exi5, I guess I should thank you guys, because these two posts jolted my memory:

In order for evil to flourish, it is only necessary for Ronja to take everything at face value.

I was most amused by the irony.

Did anyone else understand these comments? I didn't.

Yes, I understood them.

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0#p1004779

Aye, likewise.

http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0#p1004781

and I realized what those^^ sounded like: secondary school bullies, as I experienced them: having secrets, a shared code and/or pretending to understand each other for the purpose of looking "cool" and shutting others out. Labeling some as "preferred" and others as an embarrassing "nightmare" to have among one's acquaintances. Pretending to be interested or engaging the "nightmares" in discussion just to get a chance to get in yet another dig.

Now that is not my kind of game. I lost at it when I was ten, twelve, fourteen - I'm pretty sure I would loose again. And I'm even more sure I would not like who I would need to become to have a chance of winning. A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

Therefore: happy bye bye, Exi5 and Charlou - I'm foeing you both, before your behavior towards me starts to resemble Draco and Narcissa Malfoy even more.

Go bully someone else, preferably on another forum.

Crumple is anti-bullying. Crumple approves of a strong anti-bullying stance.

[Hermit]

happy bye bye, Exi5 and Charlou - I'm foeing you both

I don't think it is fair that people who can't be put on the ignore list can put others on theirs.

By the way, Ronja, I too saw the irony of you trying to explain something about humour to Exi5tensialist. Especially since you did it by way of replying to an excellent three-word-joke, and in the most wooden manner imaginable.

So there. Will you add me to your ignore list as well now? Mind you, if you keep going like this, you'll create some difficulties for yourself in merging and splitting threads, and using blue ink reminders admonishing people to behave.

[Jason]

Charlou a bully? I find that hard to believe.

[Atheist-Lite]

Charlou a bully? I find that hard to believe.

So do I...yet there is this thread.

[Jason]

This thread is long and full of alien rubbish. Any specific posts where she was bullying?

[Atheist-Lite]

This thread is long and full of alien rubbish. Any specific posts where she was bullying?

They have been pointed out by Ronja above. It appears to be something to do with a vendetta against literalism.

[Hermit]

Charlou a bully? I find that hard to believe.

Keep in mind that English is not Ronja's first language. That makes it easier to confuse 'to bully' with 'to laugh'.