Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

[Seth]

Why should a woman who voluntarily has sex and gets pregnant be legally relieved of the natural, expected, normal consequences of the decisions that led to pregnancy?

Because a fetus isn't a person.

Sez you. But that's a legal determination made by society, not a biological fact, and society can change its collective mind whenever it chooses to do so merely by voting to make a fetus a "person" and therefore protected by the law. Or, society can delegate representatives to make such a law for them.

That begs the question however. Why should society be obliged to relieve a woman of the consequences of her voluntary pregnancy, whether or not a fetus is a "person?" The issue of holding a woman responsible for the consequences of her actions is entirely unconnected to the legal status of the fetus, you see. It's about HER personal responsibility.

Using your "logic" we shouldn't give people who get STDs antibiotics

The only reason to give people with STD's antibiotics at public expense is to prevent them from spreading disease. That's one of the very few legitimate health functions of the government; to prevent epidemics. In fact, the government has a legitimate power to FORCE people to report STDs and submit to treatment. This power was long ago established as one of the fundamental powers of state government. See "Typhoid Mary" for more information.

Pregnancy, however, is not a communicable disease and therefore does not require public funds for treatment. Besides, we're talking about prohibiting abortion, not providing medical services to pregnant mothers.

or treat people in emergency rooms who are injured while doing something stupid, driving recklessly, not wearing a seat belt/helmet, who are obese and have a heart attack, etc. And no cancer treatments for smokers!

Indeed. That's precisely why socialized medicine is a bad thing. People are relieved of the consequences of their lifestyle choices and the costs of repairing them are foisted off on others, who have their labor and property stolen to provide care for people who may be careless and reckless. Why should the public pay to fix the consequences of such bad behavior? Shouldn't those who engage in risky activities pay for their own medical care rather than stealing from others?

[Seth]

When will Conservatives learn that life is mostly random and the individual has little if any control over what happens in his or her life unless he or she is powerful (through birth or dumb luck.)

And how is your bad luck my problem to solve or pay for? I have my own troubles and bad luck to deal with, and I really can't afford, and have no interest in laboring and paying for your lifestyle choices or misfortune, especially when you send government jackbooted thugs with machine guns to collect my money to serve your needs.

How about you deal with your problems and I'll deal with mine, and if you need help, feel free to ASK ME politely and respectfully for help. If I deem your request worthy of my labor and property, I may deign to assist you. Or not.

[Seth]

When will Conservatives learn that life is mostly random and the individual has little if any control over what happens in his or her life unless he or she is powerful (through birth or dumb luck.)

When you have a few million in the bank you can afford to not worry whether you have gas money to get to work next week.

Sounds like a good reason to work hard and industriously to improve your own financial condition so that you too can be free of the worries of economic pressure.

What it's not is a justification for stealing the fruits of someone else's labor to serve your needs and desires for economic equality.

[Seth]

I wonder how many of them actually believe that anyone can be succesful if they work hard enough. Anyone who believes so honestly is either very stupid, hopelessly ignorant or insane.

And anyone who thinks that they deserve to be economically "equal" to everyone else without working hard to achieve economy equality by virtue of hard work and industry is lazy, indolent, cupidinous, selfish, stupid, ignorant, and entirely unworthy of respect or regard.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

When will Conservatives learn that life is mostly random and the individual has little if any control over what happens in his or her life unless he or she is powerful (through birth or dumb luck.)

When you have a few million in the bank you can afford to not worry whether you have gas money to get to work next week.

Sounds like a good reason to work hard and industriously to improve your own financial condition so that you too can be free of the worries of economic pressure.

What it's not is a justification for stealing the fruits of someone else's labor to serve your needs and desires for economic equality.

Ah yes, the greed and selfishness shines bright in this boy.

[Svartalf]

I should have worked so much harder to have been born into a wealthy family.

No need, I did, and plenty fracking good that did me.

[Azathoth]

So what do you think about education being the sole preserve of the rich in the US seth? Working hard doesn't cut it when you are crippled by debt and there aren't any graduate jobs

[Gawdzilla Sama]

What's really funny here is the unconscious self-parody.

[Coito ergo sum]

So what do you think about education being the sole preserve of the rich in the US seth? Working hard doesn't cut it when you are crippled by debt and there aren't any graduate jobs

Well, my answer to that question is that education does not in the least appear to be the sole preserve of the rich in the US.

Poor people can go to school for free, and even middle class people can get Pell grants and federally guaranteed student loans (even if they have bad credit). The only reason anyone doesn't go to college is because they don't want to. http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/ ... ab=funding

There are about 42 million Americans between the ages of 18 and 30. Each year, 18 million or so people, almost all of whom are between 18 and 30, attend college.

I guess 18 million college present day college students are "rich." That's 6% of the nation in total.

Oh, and I guess that means that instead of saying the "rich" are shitting on the rest of the country, we ought to say "the college students" are shitting on the rest of the country, since education is the sole preserve of the rich, right?

[Coito ergo sum]

I wonder how many of them actually believe that anyone can be succesful if they work hard enough. Anyone who believes so honestly is either very stupid, hopelessly ignorant or insane.

And anyone who thinks that they deserve to be economically "equal" to everyone else without working hard to achieve economy equality by virtue of hard work and industry is lazy, indolent, cupidinous, selfish, stupid, ignorant, and entirely unworthy of respect or regard.

I disagree. People can certainly become equal to others without working as hard. That's up to them. If they figure out a way, then they figured out a way. I don't know of a way other than working hard. I don't begrudge anyone their ease, if they make the same or more than me by working less. I wouldn't steal their stuff. I'd also appreciate it if they'd fuck off instead of trying to put me out of business.

It's my choice to work hard, and if my lemonade stand is open 16 hours a day, and I serve great lemonade, and thereby make more money than someone else, I feel that I should keep the money I made. I am not sure why anyone here is suggesting that it would be unfair for me to do so.

I don't mind paying income tax, sales tax, property tax, duties, tariffs, etc., and I feel an obligation to give to charity. I give money every year to homeless services in my city, and I do professional services for the needy free of charge - I average about 40 hours of time donate per year.

[Coito ergo sum]

Clearly you are full of shit.

Yawn.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yer pretty slow today, youngling.

[Coito ergo sum]

And an anti-abortion fucktard. I wouldn't just die. If I didn't get disability and couldn't get on any other way I'd buy a gun and rob rich people. I'd kill them if I knew they were ones who exploited people. That's what people will do.

Oh, my. The lack of civility in discourse is astonishing. It shocks the conscience. Next thing you know, you'll be using martial metaphors in your campaign advertisements....

Or they'll revolt and overthrow capitalism, which would make things much better.

Because other than creating the most prosperous economies with the highest standards of living in the world in Europe and the US, what have capitalist based systems ever done for anyone?

Communism based systems on the other hand! Now THERE'S a system which is tried and true at making things better for everyone....

[Coito ergo sum]

I wonder how many of them actually believe that anyone can be succesful if they work hard enough. Anyone who believes so honestly is either very stupid, hopelessly ignorant or insane.

My father did it. He and my mother came to the US in the 1960's without a pot to piss in. They lived in a tenement in Brooklyn, and my father walked to work because they couldn't afford a car, and he didn't waste money on paying for transportation. He had two jobs initially, and had to look for a long time before he found himself a better one. They moved "up" to an rented apartment in the vicinity of Newark, New Jersey, so dad would be closer to his new job. That's where I was born, and I lived my first 2 years of life with mom, dad and a sibling in a one bedroom apartment in a shitty neighborhood. Eventually, by working hard and saving money, they were able to come up with a down payment on a 900 square foot house a little farther away from the city. We lived there for a few years, and moved on from there to slightly bigger house. Dad worked his way up the ladder for the same company for 40 years - was laid off once because the company was brought to the brink of disaster when Jimmy Carter was President - but went back to the same company, and moved into upper management - through hard work and achievement. Mom and dad were responsible, saved money, and taught us to do the same. I put myself through college by working my ass off, and with very little help from my parents besides food and gas money, I graduated with no student loans. I went to graduate school on my own, and borrowed money to do it, and I repaid it all. I learned that from my father. They taught their children to overcome adversity with brains and hard work.

Anyone (who is not disabled or handicapped, but even some of them too) CAN be successful if they work hard enough. I have seen it in my life, and I have seen it in others. Try working hard sometime, instead of pissing and moaning. You might actually find that it feels good, and does achieve success.

[Coito ergo sum]

responsibility to support himself for herself.

The mantra of right wingers.



Go back to watching FAUX news and listening to Rush.

It's a bit more nuanced than that. Sure, at one end of the scale you have some very harsh right-wingers who are real "law of the jungle" advocates, and treat "personal responsibilty" as the be-all and end-all; they would want to reduce government assistance to as close to zero as possible.

However, the other end of the pedulum is not the answer either; healthy adults have a certain amount of responsibility to do the maximum they can to support themselves, which may mean taking a job they don't really like, or moving where the work is (particularly if young, single and unencumbered). This should not mean abasing themselves to whatever lousy conditions or ridiculously low wages offered; that's where unions and collective bargaining can be the ally of the working man against totally rapacious capitalism.

But in the end, there will hopefully be some sort of workable compromise; governments have a role to set an industrial relations agenda that lets a reasonable balance occur.