Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post Reply
Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:12 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Seth wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:I think everyoneone should make exactly the same wage - regardless of job or lack thereof.
That's not a wage, that's the dole, and all that does is to create generational servitude to the government. And who, exactly, is going to bother to create all the wealth that's required to give such a standard wage to everyone? When there is no incentive to work hard in order to make a better wage, people quickly begin doing the least amount of work possible. If you give it to them for not working at all, as you are suggesting, nobody will work and no wealth will be created and the society will quickly fail. Just ask the Soviet Union how it worked out for them.
If you're working, it's a wage.
Yes, but, folks like MattShizzle seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding about how employers come to exist in the first place.

A wage has to be paid by someone, and businesses, even big businesses, don't just print money. They can and do run out of money and can no longer pay people. That happens all the time.

The way businesses are created is that someone with an idea puts his or her own resources, blood, sweat and tears and takes a huge personal risk to start a business. If the business fails, then it's the founder's financial well-being, credit, etc., that is lost. To survive as a going concern, any business must provide a product or service to other people that those other people think is worth parting with the their money for, and the company has to bring in as much or more money as they expend paying for all the fixed and variable costs associated with the business.

Business founders, guys like Steve Jobs, break their backs and work far harder and longer hours to advance their ideas than the average person who punches a clock. If there is no ability to make more money than the clock-puncher, then why would the business founder lose sleep at night - stay up for nights on end to accomplish things - risk homes and resources - spend person finances to fund the business - and otherwise "roll the dice" when the payoff is the same as if he or she did nothing?

Moreover, if people don't have a job, they can't be paid a salary. They can get assistance from the government. However, the government doesn't produce anything, normally. It gets its money from private industry and individuals through taxation. Without a profitable private industry, there are no income taxes (because they won't make any profits to tax), and without an incentive for people to risk their capital and resources, they will not place themselves at risk. They will simply take the easy way to the same money.

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:16 pm

MattShizzle wrote:How exactly is someone with no income supposed to be able to afford to move?

The way people do it all the time.

Anyway, the folks who were laid off from the Chrysler plant we were talking about received severance packages on top of 2 years of unemployment. They had income. These were not the "least fortunate among us." Working in an auto plant in the US in the 1990s and early 2000's earned people a lot of money, even on the line - $75,000 to $110,000 (including overtime pay) was not uncommon. There was a running joke among folks who worked for Ford and Chrysler that I know -- that guys on the line thought they were poor while earning twice the median wage....

User avatar
Clinton Huxley
19th century monkeybitch.
Posts: 23739
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by Clinton Huxley » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:18 pm

The way i see it, I don't owe some debt of gratitude to the founders of the company I work for. Seems CES thinks I should show obesiance to the Olympians who founded the company. I swap a proportion of MY time for a share of the profits generated by the joint endeavours of the company's employees.
"I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled"

AND MERRY XMAS TO ONE AND All!

Imagehttp://25kv.co.uk/date_counter.php?date ... 20counting!!![/img-sig]

User avatar
MattShizzle
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by MattShizzle » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:29 pm

What about non-auto workers? Most people nowadays live paycheck to paycheck and certainly can't afford to move in the hope of finding a new job. Getting a decent job nowadays is nearly as difficult as winning the lottery.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:30 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:I do not - just to be clear - minimize the difficulty in being laid off or let go and having to scramble to land on one's feet. I've been there. I get it. That doesn't mean, however, that I will accept out of hand the allegation that qualified, experienced auto workers have transitioned into the fast food burger flipping industry making minimum wage, because there just isn't any evidence that that is true.
I don't understand why you have to entrench on every thread. If you're life is in danger if you "lose" one of these, well, I'll save you a place by the fire.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
MattShizzle
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by MattShizzle » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:32 pm

What about non-auto workers? Most people today live paycheck to paycheck and can't afford to move in the hope of finding a new job. Getting a decent job nowadays is about as difficult as winning the lottery. Not to mention the difficulty of being away from everyone and everything you know. I'd get rid of Capitalism altogether and execute most CEO types were it up to me. Better if nobody could ever be rich if it also meant nobody could ever be very poor.

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:18 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:The way i see it, I don't owe some debt of gratitude to the founders of the company I work for.
That is true. You don't owe them anything besides to honor whatever deal you made with them.
Clinton Huxley wrote:
Seems CES thinks I should show obesiance to the Olympians who founded the company.
It appears you have completely misconstrued anything and everything I have ever written on the topic. Absolutely not, you should not show a single iota of obeisance, nor are people who found companies analogous to "Olympians." They are people, and you are under no obligation to show them anything. In fact, obeisance is the last thing you should show any company that you work for. You should demand respect, or if possible, command it.

That, of course, doesn't change the fact that money doesn't grow on trees, and that to suggest that "everyone get paid the same, no matter what, whether they work or not" is just about the most ridiculous suggestion anyone could make on the subject.
Clinton Huxley wrote:
I swap a proportion of MY time for a share of the profits generated by the joint endeavours of the company's employees.
Good for you. That sounds wonderful. I wouldn't take that away from you. MattShizzle would, though. He thinks you should make the same as anyone else, including those who don't contribute any of their time to anything.

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:25 pm

MattShizzle wrote:What about non-auto workers? Most people nowadays live paycheck to paycheck and certainly can't afford to move in the hope of finding a new job. Getting a decent job nowadays is nearly as difficult as winning the lottery.
I suppose it depends on the worker. People of limited means move around the country all the time, though. If a person is not disabled or handicapped, not elderly, and not a child, then, with all of the assistance available these days to poor people, then it would be a matter of doing whatever is necessary to make a few dollars. How do any of us do it?

User avatar
MattShizzle
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by MattShizzle » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:46 pm

What assistance available to poor people?

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:59 pm

MattShizzle wrote:What assistance available to poor people?
Are you not from the U.S?

In Florida we have:

Medicaid - free medical care with no deductibles to the poor.
Food Stamps - free food
Temporary Cash Assistance - for, well, cash assistance
Vocational Rehabilitation Services for job placement, coaching, training, etc.
Section 8 housing assistance
Low Income Energy assistance
...among others...

User avatar
Ian
Mr Incredible
Posts: 16975
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by Ian » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:07 pm

And warm weather for its nearly 60,000 homeless people. :awesome:
http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/programs/hom ... itions.pdf

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:23 pm

Ian wrote:And warm weather for its nearly 60,000 homeless people. :awesome:
http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/programs/hom ... itions.pdf
That's true, it's a large problem.

To understand what is considered "homeless" however, please note that one can have a home and still be considered homeless. If you are living with someone else because you got your house foreclosed on, then you're homeless.

In England there are 84,900 households (which may contain more than one person) that are classified as homeless http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_England

In Florida there are 57,000+ that are homeless. We'll round up to the 60,000.

In Holland it looks like about 40,000 are homeless, based on the googles.

In Canada, the federal estimate of the number of homeless people in Canada was 150,000 in 2005, or about 0.5 per cent of the population.[citation needed].Homeless advocates estimated it to be closer to 300,000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Canada

So, I suppose if you're going to be homeless somewhere, being homeless in Florida would be better than choosing Canada. But, I guess the Canucks and the Brits and the Dutch aren't doing much better, if any better at all.

User avatar
MattShizzle
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by MattShizzle » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:58 pm

And that aid in most states is not enough to reasonably expect someone to live on.

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:04 pm

MattShizzle wrote:And that aid in most states is not enough to reasonably expect someone to live on.
Sure it is. Whole families live on government assistance, welfare, food stamps, housing assistance and medicaid. Can they live "well", probably not. But, an adult, able-bodied, able-minded person ought to have some responsibility to support himself for herself.

Children are provided for by the State, with guaranteed housing, guaranteed medical care, and guaranteed food. A single mom will be provided money for an apartment, food and medical care for her child, and a food stamps for herself, and cash assistance for necessaries.

If you're suggesting that living on the dole should be an attractive alternative to supporting oneself and one's family, complete with wide screen television and broadband access provided at public expense, BMW 5-series transportation, free Carnival cruises once a year, and weekly sushi delivery, well, then we'll have to agree to disagree as to what the State ought to be providing.

User avatar
MattShizzle
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:08 am
Contact:

Re: Herman Cain: It's Your Fault if You're Unemployed

Post by MattShizzle » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:13 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote: responsibility to support himself for herself.

The mantra of right wingers.

Image

Go back to watching FAUX news and listening to Rush.

:roll:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 26 guests