Ideas that sound so reasonable...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Dunno, I've been pretty low for most of the last 2 decades, and religion never has been an answer to it.

Some people are more susceptible than others.

And some people are lower than others.

[Svartalf]

Getting dumped, and working at a job I hated got me REALLY low

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Getting dumped, and working at a job I hated got me REALLY low

Did you have to kill people for a living?

[Svartalf]

Next best thing, I had to steal from them, except I chose neither the victims, nor the amount, nor the way I was going to rob'em.

[Thinking Aloud]

That is one of the most alarming and insidious texts on dominance and indoctrination I've seen in a long while. Is this from an offshoot of The Dharma Initiative?

Nope. A normal christian church in Canada, by the looks of it.

[Rum]

I'm surprised by the level of surprise over this issue. It is the logical conclusion for people of faith. The 'truth' should of course be introduced to children as early as possible. Their souls are jolly important after all!

[Thinking Aloud]

I'm surprised by the level of surprise over this issue. It is the logical conclusion for people of faith. The 'truth' should of course be introduced to children as early as possible. Their souls are jolly important after all!

I'm not surprised, but perhaps more shocked that something I would once have considered a sensible route for my church to take can now sound so sinister, especially when written by a middle-aged lady who'd never harm a fly.

A feeling of "I could have written that" I suppose.

[Rum]

Ah - but if people of religion responded to reason there would be no people of religion.

[rachelbean]

That's a silly thing to say considering many of us were religious and did just that.

[Rum]

That's a silly thing to say considering many of us were religious and did just that.

Silly? Sorry - was making a general point. I was in that category too but many - many - aren't.

[Svartalf]

I'm surprised by the level of surprise over this issue. It is the logical conclusion for people of faith. The 'truth' should of course be introduced to children as early as possible. Their souls are jolly important after all!

Like I was indocrtinated from the age of about 3 and got books about Xian myths at the same time I got ones about Greek myths as soon as I could read?

[Rum]

I've been thinking about this while out with the dogs walking.

It seems to me that people of faith aren't intrinsically or essentially irrational, though some (many?) are. It would seem to me upon reflection that many of them and no doubt non-believers like most of us, are quite capable of holding two or more contradictory models in our heads and using them as and when we need to. When I was briefly a Christian it was at a time when I was also super rational. I was into science fiction and the visions of the universe that offered and had a pretty wide ranging sort of imagination.

One of the reasons I left the faith was that ultimately that rationality won the day, but there was a period where both 'systems' resided quite happily, though sometimes not so happily, inside my head.

[rachelbean]

I've been thinking about this while out with the dogs walking.

It seems to me that people of faith aren't intrinsically or essentially irrational, though some (many?) are. It would seem to me upon reflection that many of them and no doubt non-believers like most of us, are quite capable of holding two or more contradictory models in our heads and using them as and when we need to. When I was briefly a Christian it was at a time when I was also super rational. I was into science fiction and the visions of the universe that offered and had a pretty wide ranging sort of imagination.

One of the reasons I left the faith was that ultimately that rationality won the day, but there was a period where both 'systems' resided quite happily, though sometimes not so happily, inside my head.

Exactly what I was thinking out as a reply, to clarify what I said above. I know that I was rational about most things even when I was a strong believer. I obviously had the ability to compartmentalize that area. In the end (armed with knowledge that I sought out myself, believing it wouldn't affect my faith) I wasn't able to rationalize the beliefs anymore. Even more than that they increasingly grew bizarre for me to even comprehend as a thought process. Because of that it's sometimes hard for me to understand how people like my father, whose intelligence and cognitive thinking skills really can't be questioned, maintains his beliefs. I get frustrated because to me those beliefs just feel like part of being a child, but I know it's not that simple.

[Thinking Aloud]

I think the thing that struck me on reading this, beyond the indoctrination aspects that just rub me the wrong way these days, was the tone. It's very "this would be really helpful, I think", and on reflection reminds me of my later days in the church. As you might remember, I was piano-player at my church for most of 15 years, and set up a group of musicians to play regularly from the kids who attended. It was fun, the kids were all great, and I really felt like I was doing something worthwhile. At one point it went so far as trying to "modernise" the music (using pop tunes with alternative lyrics) to draw in the teenagers more. (Wasn't it such a shame that they tended to drop out?)

But I was drifting myself, and eventually realised it was all literal nonsense. I was an atheist, but I still did the music, because in my 'live and let live' view of the time, I was content to be providing something positive for people, helping make their lives more colourful, even if I didn't believe the things they did any more. And then I had kids, and they came to church with us; while I was privately telling them that I didn't believe, how would this sit against being exposed on a regular basis to so many normal, sensible adults who clearly did? And then were the baptisms and confirmations and first communions, the family of seven who's kids always won the scripture competition, and I found myself wanting to take all these kids to one side and say, "Look, you need to know know - none of this is real. Go and look it up. Please."

But just a few years before, I was part of that system, encouraging it, and supporting it, because it was the right thing to do. And I was a normal person, just as the author of this piece is.

"You're atheists about every god that's ever been invented except for your own. We just go one god further."

(The quote's not accurate, but that's how I remember it, and that's when I knew.)

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Some blind spots are bigger than others. Many factors for this, of course.