The Game Is On: Derail thread.

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The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by Deep Sea Isopod » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:11 pm

floppit wrote: DSI - I said I would answer some of your other points and I'll honour that, but I think it would just derail this topic if the subjects are done justice. I suggest, if you agree, that as immigration played a central role in your previous thread we begin it as a separate thread. Does that seem reasonable to you?
Lets discuss the other topics too. We can start with immigration.

Firstly I'd like to point out that I am not anti-immigration. Good luck to anyone wishing to have a better life for him and his family.
I'm also aware that we do not have an "open door" policy.
And I know that immigrants do not = crime or spongers.
Labour appear to be getting better at managing our borders, I must admit.


Now then.
The NHS is struggling to cope.
The roads are gridlocked
Employment is ... well, let's put the recesion to one side.
We have a massive drain on our benefits system
Crime is high, prisons are full, the law has it's hands full
There is not enough homes to go round (private and social)
etc, etc.

I'm not blaming this on immigration, but what I'd like to know is how Britain, with net migration at 233,000 (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?id=260) in 2008 and a population of 62million, can sustain population growth at those levels?
Not forgetting that folk are living longer and teenage baby factories seem to be on the increase.
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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by Rum » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:53 pm

Population. That's the real issue for many of our ills. So much arises from there simply being too many people - from over exploitation of resources, pollution. immigration, energy issues, food security..you name it. I am really very alarmed that governments seem unwilling, and opposition parties in the democracies come to that - to even take it on as an issue.

When they start canvassing for our elections, which they will do any time now, they will be knocking on my door, as a city centre dweller. It will be the single question I ask of any of them. 'Do you have a policy on population reduction'?

Sadly, and alarmingly, I will not get an answer.

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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:57 pm

Rum hit the nail there. Immigration is just a symptom. Overpopulation is the issue. And you can still get fertility treatment on the NHS! :nono:
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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by Deep Sea Isopod » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:04 pm

Totally agree Rum. I was gonna mention the teenage baby factories in the OP, but gave it a miss.
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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:08 pm

Deep Sea Isopod wrote:Totally agree Rum. I was gonna mention the teenage baby factories in the OP, but gave it a miss.
You did mention it. :think:

Question: Who is the more productive and useful member of society - an Eastern-European agricultural labourer working for minimum wage, or a 16 year old chavette with her third baby on the way? Why earmark immigration as the key issue here?
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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by Deep Sea Isopod » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:47 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
Deep Sea Isopod wrote:Totally agree Rum. I was gonna mention the teenage baby factories in the OP, but gave it a miss.
You did mention it. :think:
Methinks the old age is... errrr, thingy. . :dono:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Question: Who is the more productive and useful member of society - an Eastern-European agricultural labourer working for minimum wage, or a 16 year old chavette with her third baby on the way? Why earmark immigration as the key issue here?
Floppit wanted to discuss the immigration issue, here.....

So, I started on immigration, but left it open for the other issues I brought up to be discussed also.
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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by Feck » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:00 pm

Lots of Polish people moving into my neighbourhood have improved it vastly.
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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by floppit » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:37 am

Deep Sea Isopod wrote:
floppit wrote: DSI - I said I would answer some of your other points and I'll honour that, but I think it would just derail this topic if the subjects are done justice. I suggest, if you agree, that as immigration played a central role in your previous thread we begin it as a separate thread. Does that seem reasonable to you?
Lets discuss the other topics too. We can start with immigration.

Firstly I'd like to point out that I am not anti-immigration. Good luck to anyone wishing to have a better life for him and his family.
I'm also aware that we do not have an "open door" policy.
And I know that immigrants do not = crime or spongers.
Labour appear to be getting better at managing our borders, I must admit.


Now then.
The NHS is struggling to cope.
The roads are gridlocked
Employment is ... well, let's put the recesion to one side.
We have a massive drain on our benefits system
Crime is high, prisons are full, the law has it's hands full
There is not enough homes to go round (private and social)
etc, etc.

I'm not blaming this on immigration, but what I'd like to know is how Britain, with net migration at 233,000 (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?id=260) in 2008 and a population of 62million, can sustain population growth at those levels?
Not forgetting that folk are living longer and teenage baby factories seem to be on the increase.
The position you present here is much more reasonable than the original:
We have the highest net immigration levels after the US, and we find the immigrants jobs and social housing, while the people who volunteered to defend our country (regardless of the legality of currents wars) are left on the rubish tip, relying on charities.
In particular the bit I bolded.

and here:
Did we have "Health tourism" in the NHS in the 80's? That's where someone comes here to visit relatives, then overnight they become sick. They book into the nearest hospital for free treatment.
The NHS bump them to the top of the queue for treatment because the patient can't speak English and the translators charge by the hour.
Again, in particular the bit I've bolded.

The parts I emphasised are (to my knowledge but happy to debate) well known emotive immigration myths. When considering immigration and it's impact it's important to look at the various reasons people leave their homeland as this has a direct influence on what happens next. For an extreme example look at Switzerland who actively seek immigration from anywhere as long as the person coming in has extraordinary wealth. For a less extreme example one can look back at the post WWII immigration in the UK that was actively sought to plug a labour and skills gap which would otherwise have prevented the rebuilding of services and infrastructure after the war. In today's world some industries have become so unpopular with those born here, born into the level of privilege, that we remain reliant on immigrant labour, manual farm work and care work with the elderly being two better known examples, dentistry a less well known one. Refugee and asylum seeking are different with undoubted grey areas - the biggest of which is whether they are genuinely escaping persecution, something which is difficult to determine by purely empirical means. For some of the grey issues my bottom line is which becomes most reasonable to believe, as belief or lack of it is inherent to understanding both the causes and solutions.

But RATS! I'm out of time. I have my uncle to stay tonight and my brother's 40th birthday party - please don't feel my lack of response has anything to do with the subject. It's slow to respond to thanks to the wondrous and extremely annoying habit the media (and LAs) have of not referencing! LAs seem quite keen to dispel social housing myths and aren't a bad source per-say, they are at least clear about who is not eligible but fail to reference the why bit!

On a side note, while I've been failing to chase bollox referencing I have come across a few scattered remarks about low birth rate in Europe being a problem due to an ageing population - I know nothing about this but it could create an interesting twist to population control, if we succeeded in getting a reduced birth rate how do the few young then care for the many old?
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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by Deep Sea Isopod » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:44 pm

floppit wrote:
We have the highest net immigration levels after the US, and we find the immigrants jobs and social housing, while the people who volunteered to defend our country (regardless of the legality of currents wars) are left on the rubish tip, relying on charities.
In particular the bit I bolded.
Well, actually, this sort of slipped out the wrong way. :oops: After spending 7 years on the council house waiting list (sharing a bedroom with my 2 kids) and constantly reading the bollox the Daily Mail keeps putting out, it kinda put a bee in my bonnett, and I guess the buzz is still echoing around my head now. :nono: :lay:
and here:
Did we have "Health tourism" in the NHS in the 80's? That's where someone comes here to visit relatives, then overnight they become sick. They book into the nearest hospital for free treatment.
The NHS bump them to the top of the queue for treatment because the patient can't speak English and the translators charge by the hour.
Again, in particular the bit I've bolded.
This part is about the Health tourism, not immigration. The folk who come here just to get free treatment.
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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:09 pm

Deep Sea Isopod wrote:
and here:
Did we have "Health tourism" in the NHS in the 80's? That's where someone comes here to visit relatives, then overnight they become sick. They book into the nearest hospital for free treatment.
The NHS bump them to the top of the queue for treatment because the patient can't speak English and the translators charge by the hour.
Again, in particular the bit I've bolded.
This part is about the Health tourism, not immigration. The folk who come here just to get free treatment.
I think you'll find that the reason that they get immediate treatment is purely down to the nature of their conditions. For example, you cannot tell a heavily pregnant woman to wait 6 months for obstetrics.

As an aside, how do you think the local people in Spain and Bulgaria feel about all of the Brits registering with their dentists and opticians? I know someone that had his teeth fixed in Spain and his eyes lasered in bulgaria for a fraction of the price it would have cost him in this country.

There are always two sides to every story - sadly that doesn't sell newspapers - particularly biased newspapers.
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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by Deep Sea Isopod » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:44 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote: As an aside, how do you think the local people in Spain and Bulgaria feel about all of the Brits registering with their dentists and opticians? I know someone that had his teeth fixed in Spain and his eyes lasered in bulgaria for a fraction of the price it would have cost him in this country.

There are always two sides to every story - sadly that doesn't sell newspapers - particularly biased newspapers.
But here and in Spain we have to pay for dentists and opticians. I'm talking about people who are already sick in their own country, then come here to benefit from free treatment, from our already struggling NHS. As harsh as this may sound, it is not a World Health Service.


Actualy, while typing this, I'm thinking "Why shouldn't we let them benefit from free treatment, that they can't afford to pay for in their own country?"

I've been on this site too long. :nono: You lefties are turning me! :cry:
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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:10 pm

Deep Sea Isopod wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote: As an aside, how do you think the local people in Spain and Bulgaria feel about all of the Brits registering with their dentists and opticians? I know someone that had his teeth fixed in Spain and his eyes lasered in bulgaria for a fraction of the price it would have cost him in this country.

There are always two sides to every story - sadly that doesn't sell newspapers - particularly biased newspapers.
But here and in Spain we have to pay for dentists and opticians. I'm talking about people who are already sick in their own country, then come here to benefit from free treatment, from our already struggling NHS. As harsh as this may sound, it is not a World Health Service.


Actualy, while typing this, I'm thinking "Why shouldn't we let them benefit from free treatment, that they can't afford to pay for in their own country?"

I've been on this site too long. :nono: You lefties are turning me! :cry:
In my understanding, it is not always that they can't afford treatment in their own countries, sometimes it is merely to get a better class of treatment - or some procedure that is not available in their part of the world. Flying to the UK from Nigeria is prohibitively expensive to all but a tiny percent of that country's population.

I am not condoning 'health tourism' but what are you going to do once someone is here, send them home to die? The fact is that it is far rarer than the Mail makes out and these people are NOT getting prioritised - they go through the same triage as Brits. As I understand it, they are also billed for their treatment - of course, they never pay but that is another matter.
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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by Deep Sea Isopod » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:27 pm

My MiL once told me how she treated a French trucker who had had a crash. (Obviously he needed emergency treatment) but he was worried about not being able to pay, until she reasured him it was all free. He was very gratefull.

That is a good point though, we can't really turn them away once they're here.
The example I gave on the other thread, about my wife's colleague over hearing the one family say to the other how they flew their aunt in the day before, seems as though the family in the UK payed for the flight.
Once again, looking at it rationally, this isn't gonna be happening too often I spose.
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Re: The Game Is On: Derail thread.

Post by floppit » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:12 pm

I'm shattered after a late night and a Munchkin who decided I needed an 5.30am start to the day! I'm off for a kip soon but just thought I'd swing by here first.

On the more philosophical front, the world has changed, most notably the traffic and communication between countries - it's got smaller in a very real sense. Part of me feels that the tighter the laws are on immigration the more people come illegally and that means no tax revenue and costly intervention seeking/returning them. We are a rich country, despite our constant moans and groans this country is a place people want to be and our surrounding sea is dwindling in power as a moat.

In view of the changes in the last century I think the need to think in terms of a world view rather than an insular one becomes more and more salient. Ultimately I see the only truly successful way to reduce immigration longterm is the improvement of life where people are born outside the UK and, of course, perhaps to lose some of the privilege we have begun to take for granted. This was why I agreed re us probably having peaked in terms of national standards of living. For the life of me I cannot see how any other means will stop the movement of people around the world.

It's not just comparative wealth at play either. When I was a teenager I didn't talk to people every day across the globe, I do now, and everywhere I've been where that's the case that ol' human emotion means bonds get made and eventually people travel. As if that wasn't enough war plays a massive role and as peoples fear dwindling resources the willingness to go to war increases, at least that is what I think - I think our North Sea Oil is running out, I think we are at war for oil.

I could write the above quickly without faffing for references as it's all pontification anyway!

On the reference front re NHS treatment. I have a medical friend frustrated by the limits to treatment they are allowed to give to many immigrants, like many who enter such a profession she finds it impossible to weigh up first where someone was born in order to decided what the clinical response should be. I found this while swimming round the net yesterday but couldn't find the report it referred to:
http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/News/Recentstories/DH_102993

Bearing in mind it talks about allowing more care and was dated 2009, by inference (and I think logical inference) the care now suggested was previously and very recently denied. My bottom line is I don't want to be treated by doctors and nurses who weigh their response to suffering according to nationality, whatever it costs in money to allow them to care I also accept there would be a considerable cost both in compassion and in who is willing to work for the NHS entailed by denying vital care. Perhaps, in view of my world view I figure the former cost will either be paid willingly by us or unwillingly (that we have no means to forever hold the advantages we now enjoy - no society does, and few have seen times like this in regard to travel and communication). We have though, some chance, however small to keep our compassion - without that the NHS would never have come into being so it should not be undervalued.
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