Are you a sinner?

[Pappa]

That recent Dawkins attack on the hypocrisy of Christian theology got me thinking about something. The whole of Christianity is permeated with this idea of sin. We are all sinners and need our sin washed away by the love of God (which must be the soap) and the flannel of Jesus (his loincloth perhaps). Anyway, they get their converts by perversely making weak and vulnerable adults or naive an vulnerable children believe they are evil sinners who's only hope is to bow down and lick the shit off God's skid-marked underpants, thereby attaining eternal happiness.

Now, I've done various things in my life. I've made some mistakes, some errors of judgment, but I don't think I've ever acted truly maliciously. I've insulted people, even been physically violent a few times... but every time, I think I was responding to their actions, or acting under extreme stress. At no point in my life have I ever purposely decided to be nasty. As far as I can see, I was always just trying to do what I thought was the right thing at the time, and sometimes responding irrationally due to the nature of the situation I was in.

For me, sinning would require complicity or active malice. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics, but Christians theology seems to lump any tiny infractions together under the label 'sin'. Ooops, you ran over a dog, go to hell. Ooops, you were ogling your neighbours wife for a moment, go to hell. Ooops, you were picking your nose, go to hell.

Please note, I've left the whole idea of original sin out of this because it doesn't relate directly to these stupid claims about natural disasters being caused by gays or loose morals, etc.

[Thinking Aloud]

When I was young (and by that I mean from the age of 6 until probably 16) we would go semi-regularly (once every six months, probably!) to Confession at church, usually on a Saturday afternoon. For anyone who wasn't brought up a Catholic, this involves kneeling in a pew for a while, considering all the sins one has committed, waiting for the confessional to be free, and then going in for a one-to-one with the priest (insofar as talking through an opaque lattice screen constitutes a one-to-one).

As a reasonably good little boy, my misdemeanours usually consisted of telling fibs, a bit of back-chat to the parents, or being a bit spiteful towards my sibling. Nothing I would rationally describe with the word "sin". So usually I'd do a lot of soul-searching prior to going in, and assume that I'd probably told a few lies, or been nasty to someone, in the last six months. So when I confessed, I was mostly making stuff up to ensure I had something to say.

For anyone curious, this was how it went:

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

Sound of the door closing behind me.

PRIEST: Hyessssssss.

ME: Oh my God, because you are so good, I am very sorry that I have sinned against you, and by the help of your Grace, I will not sin again.

PRIEST: Hyessssssss.

ME: Bless me Father, it has been six months since my last confession, and these are my sins:

PRIEST: Hyessssssss.

ME: I have lied ... five times.

PRIEST: Hyessssssss.

ME: I have been horrible to my sister ... a few times.

PRIEST: Hyessssssss.

ME: I swore ... once. (Under my breath.)

PRIEST: Hyessssssss.

ME: Those are all the sins I can think of, Father, and I am sorry for them.

PRIEST: Hyessssssss. Ahh well, three Hail Marys for your penance. God bless you, and say a prayer for me.

ME: God bless you, Father.

Leave confessional and go to another pew to say three Hail Marys.

[It's worth adding that I remember this so well because it was exactly the same each time - to the extent we joked that the priest was actually a tape recording. One day, waiting to go in, we heard a loud, but brief snatch of loud music from the confessional. We all turned to each other and said, "Wrong tape!"]

One thing that came to mind just now, recalling childhood, and sin, and stuff, was a morning assembly in Primary school - probably age 10 or 11. The headmistress held up a sheet of white paper, with a small black dot in the middle of it, and asked us all what we could see.

Naturally, anyone asked said, "a black spot". She then pointed out that she was, in fact, holding up a large white piece of paper (with a small dot on it). This was an analogy for sin - the sheet was a good person who had a tiny only amount of sinfulness in them - but that even that tiny amount could be seen and distracted from the far larger expanse of goodness all around it. I think she went on to talk about Confession after that, as well as not sinning in the first place.

[Animavore]

I'm in concordance with TA here. I used to be puzzled about confession altogether. I just thought it was pointless. I used to make up sins like I robbed 10p from my mother's purse or I said a bad word. I always felt that any misdeeds or mistakes were dealt with in the real world and usually in the here and now. I couldn't see what saying a few prayers in my head was supposed to do. Sin to me seems like a form of beating yourself up just because you done something "bold".

Get over it.

[klr]

When I was young (and by that I mean from the age of 6 until probably 16) we would go semi-regularly (once every six months, probably!) to Confession at church, usually on a Saturday afternoon. For anyone who wasn't brought up a Catholic, this involves kneeling in a pew for a while, considering all the sins one has committed, waiting for the confessional to be free, and then going in for a one-to-one with the priest (insofar as talking through an opaque lattice screen constitutes a one-to-one).

As a reasonably good little boy, my misdemeanours usually consisted of telling fibs, a bit of back-chat to the parents, or being a bit spiteful towards my sibling. Nothing I would rationally describe with the word "sin". So usually I'd do a lot of soul-searching prior to going in, and assume that I'd probably told a few lies, or been nasty to someone, in the last six months. So when I confessed, I was mostly making stuff up to ensure I had something to say.

For anyone curious, this was how it went:

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

Sound of the door closing behind me.

PRIEST: Hyessssssss.

ME: Oh my God, because you are so good, I am very sorry that I have sinned against you, and by the help of your Grace, I will not sin again.

PRIEST: Hyessssssss.

ME: Bless me Father, it has been six months since my last confession, and these are my sins:

PRIEST: Hyessssssss.

ME: I have lied ... five times.

PRIEST: Hyessssssss.

ME: I have been horrible to my sister ... a few times.

PRIEST: Hyessssssss.

ME: I swore ... once. (Under my breath.)

PRIEST: Hyessssssss.

ME: Those are all the sins I can think of, Father, and I am sorry for them.

PRIEST: Hyessssssss. Ahh well, three Hail Marys for your penance. God bless you, and say a prayer for me.

ME: God bless you, Father.

Leave confessional and go to another pew to say three Hail Marys.

[It's worth adding that I remember this so well because it was exactly the same each time - to the extent we joked that the priest was actually a tape recording. One day, waiting to go in, we heard a loud, but brief snatch of loud music from the confessional. We all turned to each other and said, "Wrong tape!"]

That's a standard-issue Saturday morning confession if ever I heard one. Or said one.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Bless me father for I have sinned. I waited 4 hours so that I could drop the biggest, smelliest, vindaloo fart in this confessional. Enjoy.

[Animavore]

Bless me father for I have sinned. I waited 4 hours so that I could drop the biggest, smelliest, vindaloo fart in this confessional. Enjoy.

A Guinness one is far more potent and appropriate for Ireland.

Just saying

[Feck]

My first girlfriend was a catholic. She didn't go to confession every week ( thank fuck) but the fact that some part of her thought that what we were doing
was a sin annoyed the hell out of me. The fact that authority figures in her life had spent years messing with her head upset me more .
My parents even lied to hers sometimes to cover that fact that she had spent the weekend with me alone. Why should my parents be forced into a lie ?
Why would a girl that horny even have to try giving up sex with her long term boyfriend (never lasted more than a week )

FUCK "sin" I do not subscibe to the twisted concept

[Thinking Aloud]

"Sin and the Obsession With Sex"

I'm sure there's a doctoral thesis in there somewhere.

[Ayaan]

It's like snakeoil hucksters - religion sells you the idea that you are sick and then sells you the cure. If you can be convinced that without god, church and/or religion you are worthless and evil then they have control over you. That's what it boils down to - and they will do what they can to reinforce that idea.

[cowiz]

Obviously I've not been to confession for years, but this got me thinking, it might be fun to go and confess some sins...

Me: Forgive me father for I have sinned, it's been 30 fucking years since my last confession:

Pedo Priest: Tell me your sins son *I can't quite remember the format*

Me: Let me see, well I lied to my boss, I has lustful thoughts about my next door neighbor, I raped my mother, I took some cookies without asking.

Pedo Priest: What was that part in the middle again?

Me: I had lustful thoughts about my next door neighbor!

Pedo Priest: No, the other part.

Me: Oh, I raped my mother

Pedo Priest: Son, that is a crime and a sin against god.

Me: Yes, that's why I'm in confession you fuckwit.

Pedo Priest: Calling a priest a fuckwit is also a sin.

Me: Oh, I nearly forgot, I tried to exterminate the Jews....

Etc...

Would be a lot of fun methinks.

[Pappa]

My first girlfriend was a catholic. She didn't go to confession every week ( thank fuck) but the fact that some part of her thought that what we were doing
was a sin annoyed the hell out of me. The fact that authority figures in her life had spent years messing with her head upset me more .
My parents even lied to hers sometimes to cover that fact that she had spent the weekend with me alone. Why should my parents be forced into a lie ?
Why would a girl that horny even have to try giving up sex with her long term boyfriend (never lasted more than a week )

FUCK "sin" I do not subscibe to the twisted concept

I had a catholic girlfriend once. She was really twisted with catholic guilt too. For all of our relationship she kept it a secret from her friends. Then later when someone told her housemates about it, she lied and said actually I'd been stalking her for 6 months. This was basically to cover up the fact that she had a boyfriend and had been having sex. She was about 21 at the time.

[Feck]

My first girlfriend was a catholic. She didn't go to confession every week ( thank fuck) but the fact that some part of her thought that what we were doing
was a sin annoyed the hell out of me. The fact that authority figures in her life had spent years messing with her head upset me more .
My parents even lied to hers sometimes to cover that fact that she had spent the weekend with me alone. Why should my parents be forced into a lie ?
Why would a girl that horny even have to try giving up sex with her long term boyfriend (never lasted more than a week )

FUCK "sin" I do not subscibe to the twisted concept

I had a catholic girlfriend once. She was really twisted with catholic guilt too. For all of our relationship she kept it a secret from her friends. Then later when someone told her housemates about it, she lied and said actually I'd been stalking her for 6 months. This was basically to cover up the fact that she had a boyfriend and had been having sex. She was about 21 at the time.

I bet that filled you with love and harmony .

[maiforpeace]

My first girlfriend was a catholic. She didn't go to confession every week ( thank fuck) but the fact that some part of her thought that what we were doing
was a sin annoyed the hell out of me. The fact that authority figures in her life had spent years messing with her head upset me more .
My parents even lied to hers sometimes to cover that fact that she had spent the weekend with me alone. Why should my parents be forced into a lie ?
Why would a girl that horny even have to try giving up sex with her long term boyfriend (never lasted more than a week )

FUCK "sin" I do not subscibe to the twisted concept

I had a catholic girlfriend once. She was really twisted with catholic guilt too. For all of our relationship she kept it a secret from her friends. Then later when someone told her housemates about it, she lied and said actually I'd been stalking her for 6 months. This was basically to cover up the fact that she had a boyfriend and had been having sex. She was about 21 at the time.

I bet that filled you with love and harmony .

I had a catholic boyfriend who was so fucked up about sex that he couldn't get it up anywhere but IN THE BED. Apparently in bed it was OK because there it's for pro-creation. Any where else was for recreation, which was a sin.

[Feck]

My first girlfriend was a catholic. She didn't go to confession every week ( thank fuck) but the fact that some part of her thought that what we were doing
was a sin annoyed the hell out of me. The fact that authority figures in her life had spent years messing with her head upset me more .
My parents even lied to hers sometimes to cover that fact that she had spent the weekend with me alone. Why should my parents be forced into a lie ?
Why would a girl that horny even have to try giving up sex with her long term boyfriend (never lasted more than a week )

FUCK "sin" I do not subscibe to the twisted concept

I had a catholic girlfriend once. She was really twisted with catholic guilt too. For all of our relationship she kept it a secret from her friends. Then later when someone told her housemates about it, she lied and said actually I'd been stalking her for 6 months. This was basically to cover up the fact that she had a boyfriend and had been having sex. She was about 21 at the time.

I bet that filled you with love and harmony .

I had a catholic boyfriend who was so fucked up about sex that he couldn't get it up anywhere but IN THE BED. Apparently in bed it was OK because there it's for pro-creation. Any where else was for recreation, which was a sin.

And no oral ?

[floppit]

That recent Dawkins attack on the hypocrisy of Christian theology got me thinking about something. The whole of Christianity is permeated with this idea of sin. We are all sinners and need our sin washed away by the love of God (which must be the soap) and the flannel of Jesus (his loincloth perhaps). Anyway, they get their converts by perversely making weak and vulnerable adults or naive an vulnerable children believe they are evil sinners who's only hope is to bow down and lick the shit off God's skid-marked underpants, thereby attaining eternal happiness.

Now, I've done various things in my life. I've made some mistakes, some errors of judgment, but I don't think I've ever acted truly maliciously. I've insulted people, even been physically violent a few times... but every time, I think I was responding to their actions, or acting under extreme stress. At no point in my life have I ever purposely decided to be nasty. As far as I can see, I was always just trying to do what I thought was the right thing at the time, and sometimes responding irrationally due to the nature of the situation I was in.

For me, sinning would require complicity or active malice. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics, but Christians theology seems to lump any tiny infractions together under the label 'sin'. Ooops, you ran over a dog, go to hell. Ooops, you were ogling your neighbours wife for a moment, go to hell. Ooops, you were picking your nose, go to hell.

Please note, I've left the whole idea of original sin out of this because it doesn't relate directly to these stupid claims about natural disasters being caused by gays or loose morals, etc.

Pappa, I wish I could genuinely hold the position you take here:

I've made some mistakes, some errors of judgment, but I don't think I've ever acted truly maliciously. I've insulted people, even been physically violent a few times... but every time, I think I was responding to their actions, or acting under extreme stress.

I can't, there are times when I've just acted out of self interest and however much I've wanted to blame circumstance or others the bottom line has been a realisation that my own actions truly belonged to me. This is the thing that has brought me to apologise but more than that it's what allows me to let go of harmful things other people sometimes do. Perhaps it is a hangover from a teaching of forgiving as you'd like to be forgiven, that was certainly where I first met the philosophy explicitly and it made sense to me then. It doesn't require the magical thinking of faith, nor does it require endless moral judgement of others, it just offers a mean to accept another person and to accept myself knowing that even intentions are not always completely benign.

To use a very unemotive example. I was coming home one lunch time to let my dogs out, something which always left me short of time to eat, on the way I stopped to buy a portion of fish and chips. It was the school lunch hour and there was a queue of kids waiting to be served but the guy behind the counter was calling adults to the front to be served first and I went. There was no way I didn't know it was wrong, I was working in Children's Rights at the time FFS - but even if I hadn't been I would still have KNOWN it was wrong on every level. I went to the front and as I did so another adult was waved forward but refused and said she would wait her turn - an elderly factory worker from over the road. This taught me about inequality, it taught me about me, and it taught me to curb my language and emotion when I referred to those who take advantage of inequality for their own ends - whatever I say about them applies also to me.

No, I don't believe in sin in the way the religious texts pose it, as against a mythical being, a slight to that being's greatness. I know I do things that are wrong, I struggle to think there exists people who's motives can rightly be 100% justified by elements out of their control. I'm not suggesting that such a justification is a deception, just whether it's accurate.

It's a really old fashioned word but I think in terms of what's honourable or dishonourable, how much my actions and what I say matches the philosophies I hold through reasoning. Where my reasoning is wrong my actions and what I say is also likely to be wrong so the whole things rests on effort for accuracy - even though ultimately I know I'll never achieve it.

I put a great deal of effort and soul searching (vernacular meaning - just to clarify!) into being honourable but have not yet got there perfectly. I don't struggle so much with other people's mistakes but I can struggle with a lack of a perceived effort, I do struggle with that.