Problems with Prayer

[Pappa]

That thread about the praying teacher got me thinking about prayer in general.

I mentioned in that thread about the infallibility problem. If god answered prayers it would mean his original decision was wrong, unless he planned to do things wrong and planned to get someone to pray to him to make him change his mind... but where would be the sense in that?

Then they're the amputees thing. God only answers prayers that could theoretically be fixed by natural means anyway. He cures cancer, but doesn't regrow legs.

Can you think of others?

[Drewish]

I prayed for a new tail and God provided.

[Thinking Aloud]

The problem with prayer is that god always answers. And it's always either "yes", "no" or "maybe later".

The thing that theists always miss is that they'd get the same response if they prayed to their front door. "Yes", "no" or "maybe later".

* Pray for a parking space when you go shopping - the Front Door will almost always deliver.

* Pray for remission from terminal cancer - the Front Door will almost always decline.

* Pray for relief from personal financial trouble - the Front Door will sometimes deliver at some point in the future.

Hooray for front doors - the great thing is you always get a response, just like God. Don't you just love cause and effect?

[leo-rcc]

I can give you the most common theistic response I've hear don prayer:

"A Christian believes by faith that any genuine request will be answered. They have 'assurance' of that. There is no guarantee that what's requested shall be exactly so. If it is God's will then it will happen. If it isn't then it won't."

In other words: God answers all prayers, but not all answers are "Yes".

[Bella Fortuna]

That's a Magic 8 Ball, that is!

[Rum]

I'm not quite clear what you are trying to do here. From the looks of it you are trying to find some theological cum rational way of arguing against prayer. Surely the point is quite simply that it is pure fantasy.

[Pappa]

I'm not quite clear what you are trying to do here. From the looks of it you are trying to find some theological cum rational way of arguing against prayer. Surely the point is quite simply that it is pure fantasy.

Just creating a list of stupid things about prayer for fun really.

[Rum]

I'm not quite clear what you are trying to do here. From the looks of it you are trying to find some theological cum rational way of arguing against prayer. Surely the point is quite simply that it is pure fantasy.

Just creating a list of stupid things about prayer for fun really.

Fair enough. Nothing wrong with that!

Here's another one then. If two opposing teams pray to win a game (or a war for that matter), does it means that god is on the side of the winners and against the losers?

[Pappa]

I'm not quite clear what you are trying to do here. From the looks of it you are trying to find some theological cum rational way of arguing against prayer. Surely the point is quite simply that it is pure fantasy.

Just creating a list of stupid things about prayer for fun really.

Fair enough. Nothing wrong with that!

Here's another one then. If two opposing teams pray to win a game (or a war for that matter), does it means that god is on the side of the winners and against the losers?

Of course. We all know god supports Man U.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

A guy I knew stepped on a land mine. It went "click". That's one. When you hear the first click, the next one will come when the pressure is removed from the mine. You won't hear that one because it is lost in the explosion. We had a way of dealing with this that involved a steel bar and some spikes. This guy, however, waved us off and said, "I'm a good Christian. God will take care of me." He then lifted his foot. He hadn't been with us long enough for me to bother learning his name.

[Pappa]

A guy I knew stepped on a land mine. It went "click". That's one. When you hear the first click, the next one will come when the pressure is removed from the mine. You won't hear that one because it is lost in the explosion. We had a way of dealing with this that involved a steel bar and some spikes. This guy, however, waved us off and said, "I'm a good Christian. God will take care of me." He then lifted his foot. He hadn't been with us long enough for me to bother learning his name.

Silly cunt.

[klr]

A guy I knew stepped on a land mine. It went "click". That's one. When you hear the first click, the next one will come when the pressure is removed from the mine. You won't hear that one because it is lost in the explosion. We had a way of dealing with this that involved a steel bar and some spikes. This guy, however, waved us off and said, "I'm a good Christian. God will take care of me." He then lifted his foot. He hadn't been with us long enough for me to bother learning his name.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

A guy I knew stepped on a land mine. It went "click". That's one. When you hear the first click, the next one will come when the pressure is removed from the mine. You won't hear that one because it is lost in the explosion. We had a way of dealing with this that involved a steel bar and some spikes. This guy, however, waved us off and said, "I'm a good Christian. God will take care of me." He then lifted his foot. He hadn't been with us long enough for me to bother learning his name.

Silly cunt.

I could tell he wasn't going to last long. You see somebody and there's a figure behind them in a black cloak with a scythe in its hand and you don't even bother saying "hi".

[BrettA]

I'm not quite clear what you are trying to do here. From the looks of it you are trying to find some theological cum rational way of arguing against prayer. Surely the point is quite simply that it is pure fantasy.

Just creating a list of stupid things about prayer for fun really.

Lots of stupid things about prayer (i.e. all of it), but I also recall that there have been many studies done, the most famous was large and fairly long term and related to 'prayer' about outcomes of hospital patients. It included family members as well as congregations 'praying' for a positive outcome of some unknown person (i.e. personally unknown, but identified). As I recall, many 000s were involved and it was very general - spanning all sorts of diseases and other medical problems (short of amputees - lol) - but I'm not sure which one this supposedly famous one is as they all come to the same conclusion. Does anyone have a link to this if they even know which one I'm referring to?

[Pappa]

I'm not quite clear what you are trying to do here. From the looks of it you are trying to find some theological cum rational way of arguing against prayer. Surely the point is quite simply that it is pure fantasy.

Just creating a list of stupid things about prayer for fun really.

Lots of stupid things about prayer (i.e. all of it), but I also recall that there have been many studies done, the most famous was large and fairly long term and related to 'prayer' about outcomes of hospital patients. It included family members as well as congregations 'praying' for a positive outcome of some unknown person (i.e. personally unknown, but identified). As I recall, many 000s were involved and it was very general - spanning all sorts of diseases and other medical problems (short of amputees - lol) - but I'm not sure which one this supposedly famous one is as they all come to the same conclusion. Does anyone have a link to this if they even know which one I'm referring to?

I read about that in the New Scientist... maybe 18 months ago?