Jesus died for us !!

[mistermack]

Ignoring the historical question, of "did Jesus actually exist"?, as in the gospels and St Paul's writings, did he really die for us?

Call me cynical, but dying, when you know you're going to rise again after a couple of days, isn't really dying, and not such a great sacrifice.
Presumably, whatever state he was in, when he was "dead" didn't involve suffering. Unless he went to hell as a guest of his former friend Satan.

In any case, if you are a god, surely you can switch off your own suffering. We have documentary proof that this is so, because when he rose again, he still had the wounds from his crucifiction. But there is no report of him being bothered by them.
That's nails through the hands and feet, a spear wound right through his body, and terrible wounds from the scourging and crown of thorns. There is no mention of infection, or blood poisoning, or MRSA. So there was a bit of godly magic going on.

So having established that, then it's pretty obvious that he wouldn't have suffered when those wounds were made either.

So all this stuff about how he suffered and died for us, is rubbish, as proved by the new testament.
It's gospel, so it is.

[SteveB]

Maybe God juiced Jesus up with a heavy dose of morphine before he pulled that resurrection trick and or maybe Jesus isn't a pussy and he manned up and did what needed to done despite all his pre-death injuries?

[Audley Strange]

Well, you need to look at it in context. Jehovah damns us with Original Sin (eating from the tree of knowledge). We try to communicate directly with Jehovah to sort it out, by building a huge tower. This act of ostentatious diplomacy is ignored and Jerhoovy trashes all the work. Then the prick floods the planet to wipe everyone out except Noah and his bestiality collection. After that everyone is so shit scared of him that they will even willingly murder their son to appease the fuck, rape and murder their neighbours in his name and do all sorts of horrid shit, in his name.

Eventually Yawhee wonders if he's fucked up the start conditions of humanity, making them act crazy, so he pops on a Jesus suit and goes out his way to prove that man can live without being a slave to dogma (unless it's his) and fear of empire. To do this he allows the Empire and Orthodoxy to niall him to a bit of carpentry. In those moments he even admits that the fruit didn't take, "They know not what they do."

Thus by sacrificing himself he erased the concept of original sin. It was God's final judgement.

Also according to some literature, Jesus' spirit was dragged into Hell between his death and Resurrection, it is called "The Harrowing of Hell." In which all the weeds (saved souls) were plucked from the pit, making it all the worse.

[mistermack]

Ain't it the truth? Halallujia brother !!

And yet these atheist fools can't see it. !

[Audley Strange]

Ain't it the truth? Halallujia brother !!

And yet these atheist fools can't see it. !

Hah. I recall going through all of that (there is a lot lot more to it than that) with a Christian who started talking to me while I was having a smoke outside a pub. He seemed impressed and actually said "I never thought about it like that."

I didn't have the heart to tell him that given Jehovah's behaviour as well as being existent before the light meant, that he was a vicious prideful arrogant murderous deity, who convinced people that somehow he way the truth and the light. Since he is lying about the light, he's not the truth. He is the darkness and the Prince of Lies who's first action is as the bringer of light which is what people refer to as Lucifer.

Thus the Biblical God is actually Satan.

[charlou]

^ pardon me, but bollocks .. The bringer of metaphoric light, ie enlightenment, was Lucifer .. the sharing, rational guy in our little mythical tale.

[mistermack]

^ pardon me, but bollocks .. The bringer of metaphoric light, ie enlightenment, was Lucifer .. the sharing, rational guy in our little mythical tale.

Ha ha, Lucifer has got a tiny dick, and bollocks like peas.
No wonder he's a bit mean.

[Animavore]

It's a bit weird when people come up to me and tell me some bloke I never met or care about died for me.

It's just as weird when Christians do it with reference to Jesus.

[Audley Strange]

^ pardon me, but bollocks .. The bringer of metaphoric light, ie enlightenment, was Lucifer .. the sharing, rational guy in our little mythical tale.

You are pardoned.

Lucifer is the bringer of the light that illuminated the universe, who in illuminating the cosmos thought he created it and demanded equal footing and was cast out, where (for some reason) he plotted revenge against Jehovah pervert his works and destroy mankind apparently. According to biblical hoo-hah.

It was as Satan, in the guise of a snake that he tempted Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge. That was a bad thing remember.

So if Jehovah is the Prince of Lies, the it makes sense that he who is condemned as the Evil One is actually the Creator.

In the context of the fables.

[Tero]

Then, where did he go? Why isn't he still here, body and all?

[Coito ergo sum]

Ignoring the historical question, of "did Jesus actually exist"?, as in the gospels and St Paul's writings, did he really die for us?

Call me cynical, but dying, when you know you're going to rise again after a couple of days, isn't really dying, and not such a great sacrifice.
Presumably, whatever state he was in, when he was "dead" didn't involve suffering. Unless he went to hell as a guest of his former friend Satan.

Satan is not in Hell. He's in heaven, until the War in Heaven foretold in the Book of Revelation when 1/3 of the angels will rebel.

Also, according to Catholics, Jesus did descend into hell. See Apostle's Creed.

In any case, if you are a god, surely you can switch off your own suffering. We have documentary proof that this is so, because when he rose again, he still had the wounds from his crucifiction. But there is no report of him being bothered by them.
That's nails through the hands and feet, a spear wound right through his body, and terrible wounds from the scourging and crown of thorns. There is no mention of infection, or blood poisoning, or MRSA. So there was a bit of godly magic going on.

The whole idea of the sacrifice of Jesus is for his death to replace sacrificial atonement under the Old Testament rules. He is called the "Lamb of God," because they used to use lambs as sacrificial animals to please god and get forgiveness. Jesus became the universal Lamb. So, he was sent to die "for us" as the vicarious atonement and gift to god that lambs and other animal sacrifices would have been.

For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.... is supposed to represent the supreme sacrifice that a man could make -- I have one son, primogenitor, with no alternative heirs. Sacrificed to atone for the sins of the world.

So having established that, then it's pretty obvious that he wouldn't have suffered when those wounds were made either.

So all this stuff about how he suffered and died for us, is rubbish, as proved by the new testament.
It's gospel, so it is.

He may well have suffered under the concept of him being a man, as well as the son of god as well as god incarnate. He was the incarnation, meaning he was in the flesh and as such subject to the same pains and such that a human would. He ate food, too, and gods don't need to eat, but if he did not eat, presumably he would starve.

[charlou]

Yes, yes .. yes, it all make so much sense ...

[Coito ergo sum]

Yes, yes .. yes, it all make so much sense ...

Like all religions it makes perfect sense once you accept certain completely arbitrary and unproven assertions as axiomatic premises. Then there is no problem proceeding perfectly logically to an absolutely absurd conclusion.

[klr]

But ... but ... you know you've got a friend in Jesus.

Yes, yes .. yes, it all make so much sense ...

Like all religions it makes perfect sense once you accept certain completely arbitrary and unproven assertions as axiomatic premises. Then there is no problem proceeding perfectly logically to an absolutely absurd conclusion.

You just have to want to do it.

[charlou]

Yes, yes .. yes, it all make so much sense ...

Like all religions it makes perfect sense once you accept certain completely arbitrary and unproven assertions as axiomatic premises. Then there is no problem proceeding perfectly logically to an absolutely absurd conclusion.

oh yes .. perfect sense