Why Religious Arguments Fail to Persuade.

[Animavore]

[Jesus Christ]

I am not persuaded by your argument.

[Animavore]

Godammit! Why won't you die?

[tattuchu]

Godammit! Why won't you die?

He's back?! Fucksake, KILL HIM AGAIN :I-love-pork:

[Animavore]

Godammit! Why won't you die?

He's back?! Fucksake, KILL HIM AGAIN :I-love-pork:

He's like, fucking, Jason Voorhees.

[hiyymer]

Life is irrational. The human species is territorial and groupish. "Core beliefs" are just badges of membership; the rationalizations of some group. You change your beliefs when you change groups. An atheist typically has some tale of their rationally motivated conversion, at the same time that they talk about their overbearing religious parents or the bullshit that they put up with from the priest. They left the club. It happens. Objectively, there are no rational motives.

[Robert_S]

Life is irrational. The human species is territorial and groupish. "Core beliefs" are just badges of membership; the rationalizations of some group. You change your beliefs when you change groups. An atheist typically has some tale of their rationally motivated conversion, at the same time that they talk about their overbearing religious parents or the bullshit that they put up with from the priest. They left the club. It happens. Objectively, there are no rational motives.

Actually, my personal experience with religion has been quite positive, except for the whole not being able to coherently explain what I professed to believe part.

[Animavore]

Life is irrational. The human species is territorial and groupish. "Core beliefs" are just badges of membership; the rationalizations of some group. You change your beliefs when you change groups. An atheist typically has some tale of their rationally motivated conversion, at the same time that they talk about their overbearing religious parents or the bullshit that they put up with from the priest. They left the club. It happens. Objectively, there are no rational motives.

Actually, my personal experience with religion has been quite positive, except for the whole not being able to coherently explain what I professed to believe part.

And as the worst thing that happened to me was been dragged to boring mass until after my Confirmation, which I made a heap of money from along with my Communion, at which point I was allowed do as I pleased I can't say my religious experience was totally negative either

[Xamonas Chegwé]

I pretty much agree with Ani here. The worst thing that religion ever did to me was bore me stiff and make me dress in horrible 'best' clothes every Sunday. Oh, and force me to put 10p (later 20p) of my pocket-money into the collection!!!! :I-love-pork:

Dropping it was simply a gradual loosening of ties with something that I found it harder and harder to relate to.

What it does to other people in the world though, that is another story. I got lucky in being born into a relatively liberal and tolerant, non-theocratic society. I imagine I might have had a somewhat more difficult passage to atheism in somewhere like Iran, or Kansas!

[hiyymer]

I pretty much agree with Ani here. The worst thing that religion ever did to me was bore me stiff and make me dress in horrible 'best' clothes every Sunday. Oh, and force me to put 10p (later 20p) of my pocket-money into the collection!!!! :I-love-pork:

Dropping it was simply a gradual loosening of ties with something that I found it harder and harder to relate to.

What it does to other people in the world though, that is another story. I got lucky in being born into a relatively liberal and tolerant, non-theocratic society. I imagine I might have had a somewhat more difficult passage to atheism in somewhere like Iran, or Kansas!

So much for that theory. On the other hand if you lived in Iran you might find it useful to have a support system.

[Rum]

Life is irrational. The human species is territorial and groupish. "Core beliefs" are just badges of membership; the rationalizations of some group. You change your beliefs when you change groups. An atheist typically has some tale of their rationally motivated conversion, at the same time that they talk about their overbearing religious parents or the bullshit that they put up with from the priest. They left the club. It happens. Objectively, there are no rational motives.

I partially agree, though with one significant difference. I was a Christian in my teens. I was converted from a meh sort of family protestant background by evangelicals out to earn a place in heaven who ran a youth movement called the Crusaders.

I struggled with my new found faith because it always felt irrational and really challenged my sense of 'common sense', but the 'fellowship' of the group kept me on track. This was a known and recognised force and it was referred to often. 'Fellowship' keeps you in the group and any doubts are brainwashed away.

We left that part of the world (Hong Kong) for home leave in the UK for six months and when there, free from the 'fellowship' I reached my own conclusions. It wasn't another social grouping that won me over, it was the chance to be free of the peer pressure and for logic and rationalism to have a free hand.

When six months later we returned I basically told them to fuck off, despite pressure and tales of how apostates automatically go to hell.

It took me a lot more years to become a 99% atheist. Basically after 'searching' a lot of years I came to the intellectual conclusion (free of any social context) that there was no destination or ultimate religious objective to search for. I am not a 'converted' atheist at all, I just don't see any evidence for the supernatural.

[hiyymer]

Life is irrational. The human species is territorial and groupish. "Core beliefs" are just badges of membership; the rationalizations of some group. You change your beliefs when you change groups. An atheist typically has some tale of their rationally motivated conversion, at the same time that they talk about their overbearing religious parents or the bullshit that they put up with from the priest. They left the club. It happens. Objectively, there are no rational motives.

I partially agree, though with one significant difference. I was a Christian in my teens. I was converted from a meh sort of family protestant background by evangelicals out to earn a place in heaven who ran a youth movement called the Crusaders.

I struggled with my new found faith because it always felt irrational and really challenged my sense of 'common sense', but the 'fellowship' of the group kept me on track. This was a known and recognised force and it was referred to often. 'Fellowship' keeps you in the group and any doubts are brainwashed away.

We left that part of the world (Hong Kong) for home leave in the UK for six months and when there, free from the 'fellowship' I reached my own conclusions. It wasn't another social grouping that won me over, it was the chance to be free of the peer pressure and for logic and rationalism to have a free hand.

When six months later we returned I basically told them to fuck off, despite pressure and tales of how apostates automatically go to hell.

It took me a lot more years to become a 99% atheist. Basically after 'searching' a lot of years I came to the intellectual conclusion (free of any social context) that there was no destination or ultimate religious objective to search for. I am not a 'converted' atheist at all, I just don't see any evidence for the supernatural.

I still wonder how much it's about being "rational". You agree that groupishness got you into the Crusaders. But we all have this sense of the emotional power and dominance of the group and it makes us uneasy. But what's making us uneasy? Is "reason" telling us, or something else? You referred to your "sense" of 'common sense'. You're not saying that some rational argument about the existence of God made you leave, but a "sense". It's irrational. I think there we have some biological drive for equity and good sharing which is a later overlay in evolution, and is in conflict with the basic dominance/pecking order thing. It's what makes it possible for humans to have the complexity of social organization that we do, beyond the simplistic groupishness of our closest relatives. It is not pure "reason" in the sense of if A then B. It is not really rational. We distinguish it as something we are inclined to call "reason". But it's still a feeling. It still gets set off by the experience of the unfettered group dominance drive; the evangelical thirst for control. We strike back with the rational argument, "there is no God dummy". But that's really just a diversion/rationalization. (As the original post points out).