Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

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Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by jamest » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:59 pm

The following quote, by Xamonas Chegwé, is from a recent post in the 'On treeness of Oak1, and other things' thread. It provides the basic math which supposedly counters Zeno's paradox about motion. I shall be attempting to find flaws not just in the math, but in the extent to which the math can be applied to 'reality' (assuming the math is even correct).
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Zeno's arrow paradox claims that an arrow cannot ever hit the target because it first must travel half of the distance, then half of the remaining distance, then half of the remaining distance, etc. He claimed that since there were an infinite series of steps, the arrow would never complete the journey.

What he had actually done, in stating the paradox, was to claim that an infinite series cannot have a sum. Specifically, this series.

Image

Here is a simple proof that the series does in fact converge.

Let S = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ....

So 2S = 2(1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ....)

2S = 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ....

But, if we discard the first term, this is just S.

So

2S = 1 + S

2S - S = 1

S = 1

Thus the sum of the infinite series is 1. No calculus needed. Zeno lacked the technique to do this, as did anyone at that time - but it is hardly rocket-science once you spot the trick! Had it been explained to Zeno, he would certainly have been able to follow the logic.
Firstly, the math itself. On the face of it, it looks fine. But I've spotted a problem, here:

2S = 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ....

But, if we discard the first term, this is just S.

So

2S = 1 + S


... S = the sum of the series. But 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ...., is the series itself, not summed. So, what the author of this math has done, is that he's assumed that the series has a sum, so that he can say "But, if we discard the first term, this is just S.".

The whole point of the math is to try and prove that the series can be summed - not just to assume that it has a sum and then use that assumption to prove the sum of that series.

In swapping 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ...., for S, the author of these math has made the very assumption that he was setting out to prove - that the series has a definite sum.

Is that clear? Because if it is, you will see that the math instantly becomes null & void, at this very juncture.


I want to discuss tangible and conceptual infinities, at some stage of this conversation. But what I have said, above, will probably stir alot of dust, so I'll let that settle first.

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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:42 am

Actually, all that it shows is how poorly you understand maths.
jamest wrote: ... S = the sum of the series. But 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ...., is the series itself, not summed.
WRONG! The series itself is the sequence of discreet terms: 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, etc.

1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... is all of these terms added together - that's what the '+' signs do!
So, what the author of this math has done, is that he's assumed that the series has a sum, so that he can say "But, if we discard the first term, this is just S.".


WRONG! I have simply given a name (S) to exactly what Zeno describes in his paradox. I have made no claims about that sum having any actual value at this stage. I could replace 'S' throughout with a phrase such as 'the result, whether that be a calculable number or not, of adding infinitely many parts of the whole, the first a half of the whole, the next a quarter, and each subsequent part exactly half the size of the previous' without changing anything fundamental about the proof.

I find 'S' simpler to handle. If you like, think of it as standing for 'something unknown' rather than 'sum'.

The whole point of the math is to try and prove that the series can be summed - not just to assume that it has a sum and then use that assumption to prove the sum of that series.
That is indeed the point of the maths but I never made such an assumption. All I did was to write Zeno's description in mathematical notation and give it a name.
In swapping 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ...., for S, the author of these math has made the very assumption that he was setting out to prove - that the series has a definite sum.
I have not 'swapped' anything for anything else. I have merely named something. I am sure that there are many interesting, ontological debates to be held upon the subject of a thing changing once it is named but that is irrelevant here. I will even rewrite the proof below without ever using S, or any replacement name, in order to allay any suspicion that I am presuming anything.
Is that clear? Because if it is, you will see that the math instantly becomes null & void, at this very juncture.
If it was clear, it might well do that. All that is clear, however, is your complete lack of training in and/or understanding of formal mathematics.
I want to discuss tangible and conceptual infinities, at some stage of this conversation. But what I have said, above, will probably stir alot of dust, so I'll let that settle first.
I will look forward to that. In the meantime, here is the promised, alternative proof.



The paradox (paraphrased - I don't speak ancient Greek!): It is not possible to travel the whole distance between two points. This is because first you must travel half of the distance, then you must travel half of the remaining distance (1/4), then you must travel half of the remaining distance (1/8), then 1/16, then 1/32, etc ad infinitum. Because an infinite number of actions need to be performed, no matter how many you have completed, there will always be an infinitesimal distance still to travel, hence the journey cannot be completed and all motion is illusory.

To solve this, I will show that the infinite sequence that Zeno describes sums to 1.

I have used no symbols whatsoever in this proof, simply the added sequences of numbers exactly as described by Zeno, lacking infinite time or space, I have adopted the standard shorthand and used ellipses to represent the continuation of any sequence of terms to infinity. I have described each step in words and provided the properties of rational numbers that I am using in each step, since every term in Zeno's sequence is rational. (NB. Rational numbers (Q) are numbers of the form p/q, where p and q are both integers (whole numbers) and q is not equal to 0. All integers are included in Q as a subset where q is equal to 1.)

1. The result of adding together the infinite parts as described by Zeno, be it an actual number or not, is identical to itself. (Equality is reflexive for all rational numbers)

[pre]1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ....[/pre]

2. If we double the terms on both sides of the equation, it is still true. (Rational numbers are closed under multiplication & Equality is reflexive for all rational numbers.)

[pre]2(1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... ) = 2(1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... )[/pre]

3. We can then multiply out the contents of the bracket on the right hand side. (Multiplication is distributive over addition for all rational numbers.)

[pre]2(1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... ) = 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ....[/pre]

4. And re-bracket as follows. (Addition is associative for all rational numbers.)

[pre]2(1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... ) = 1 + (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... )[/pre]

5. We can subtract (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... ) from both sides. (Subtraction is closed for all rational numbers.)

[pre]2(1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... ) - (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... )
= 1 + (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... ) - (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... )[/pre]


6. We can expand the brackets on both sides. (Multiplication is distributive over addition for all rational numbers.)

[pre]2/2 + 2/4 + 2/8 + 2/16 + .... - 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/8 - 1/16 - ... = 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... - 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/8 - 1/16 - ....[/pre]

7. We can reorder the terms. (Addition is commutative for all rational numbers.)

[pre]2/2 - 1/2 + 2/4 - 1/4 + 2/8 - 1/8 + 2/16 - 1/16 + .... = 1 + 1/2 - 1/2 + 1/4 - 1/4 + 1/8 - 1/8 + 1/16 - 1/16 + ....[/pre]

8. We can rebracket. (Addition is associative for all rational numbers.)

[pre](2/2 - 1/2) + (2/4 - 1/4) + (2/8 - 1/8) + (2/16 - 1/16) + .... = 1 + (1/2 - 1/2) + (1/4 - 1/4) + (1/8 - 1/8) + (1/16 - 1/16) + ....[/pre]

9. Finally, we can evaluate the terms inside the brackets.

[pre]1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... = 1 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + ....[/pre]

We can now see that the left hand side of the equation is Zeno's original description and that this is equal to 1.
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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:06 am

I shall be attempting to find flaws not just in the math
:shock:

This place is becoming more ad more absurd.
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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by Thinking Aloud » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:10 am

Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
I shall be attempting to find flaws not just in the math
:shock:

This place is becoming more ad more absurd.
We need more absurd ads. :panic:

But this is a serious forum, so I'll just say... :coffee:

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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:12 am

Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
I shall be attempting to find flaws not just in the math
:shock:

This place is becoming more ad more absurd.
Why?
Whats wrong with James attempting to find flaws in the maths etc?
Sometimes an idea which we accept can be flawed, and its a reasonable undertaking to check for flaws.
Its not as if he's saying anything like 'you guys are idiots! dont you see how wrong that is!"
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:12 am

Thinking Aloud wrote:
Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
I shall be attempting to find flaws not just in the math
:shock:

This place is becoming more ad more absurd.
We need more absurd ads. :panic:

But this is a serious forum, so I'll just say... :coffee:
See, this is why I usually refrain from posting when sober. I always manage do something wrong. More ad more absurd? What happen? :ask:
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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:15 am

Little Idiot wrote:
Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
I shall be attempting to find flaws not just in the math
:shock:

This place is becoming more ad more absurd.
Why?
Whats wrong with James attempting to find flaws in the maths etc?
Sometimes an idea which we accept can be flawed, and its a reasonable undertaking to check for flaws.
Its not as if he's saying anything like 'you guys are idiots! dont you see how wrong that is!"
:lol:

The absurd bit is in him not studying mathematics and then thinking he can refute established mathematical proofs. It's a bit like doing Judo for a day and thinking you can beat an Olympic champion. It's absurd and yes, obviously, it's wrong. I mean, this is all incredible.
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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by jamest » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:31 am

Just a quick point. I'm attempting to expose a flaw inherent within the symbology - therefore, a logical flaw. I'm not trying to prove that a mistake has been made in the multiplication or addition or subtraction of the terms. That's why I said that on the face of it, everything is fine.
Secondly, I do understand the math that has been presented here. In fact, I thank Xamonas Chegwé for clearly expressing the math in the simplest possible manner for us all to consider.
Thirdly, this issue is not yet resolved. XC has presented a revised form of the math which eradicates 'S' from the proceedings, which - on the face of it, again - appears to counter my initial post. However, I still see a problem inherent within the utilised symbology and I will be addressing this at some point today. Therefore, I would appreciate it if you all abstained from lynching me until after the discussion has finished.
Thankyou.

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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:01 am

jamest wrote:Just a quick point. I'm attempting to expose a flaw inherent within the symbology - therefore, a logical flaw ..... Therefore, I would appreciate it if you all abstained from lynching me until after the discussion has finished.
Thankyou.
Bah! Next you will be asking that people actually read your posts and think about it before dismissing your ideas!
:eddy:
In fact, I thank Xamonas Chegwé for clearly expressing the math in the simplest possible manner for us all to consider.
+1
Thanks XC for taking the time to let us keep up with the maths.
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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:07 am

Bah! Next you will be asking that people actually read your posts and think about it before dismissing your ideas!
:lol:

Why don't you both ask Xamonas whether he thinks your 'project' stands even the slightest chance.
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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by Little Idiot » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:12 am

Comte de Saint-Germain wrote:
Bah! Next you will be asking that people actually read your posts and think about it before dismissing your ideas!
:lol:

Why don't you both ask Xamonas whether he thinks your 'project' stands even the slightest chance.
1. Why would the opinion of the one defending the concept being questioned be helpful?
(no disrespect to XC intended)
2. Its not 'our' project. I am just an observer.
3. Deciding the point before James has even made his case known is anti-philosophical.

Other than that ....
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
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An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by Comte de Saint-Germain » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:17 am

3. Deciding the point before James has even made his case known is anti-philosophical.
When someone wants to jump off a bridge thinking he can fly saying it's a stupid idea is not anti-philosophical. Jamest has no qualifications in philosophy or mathematics or formal logic. The idea that he can come up with anything relevant to the topic is laughable.

Let's say you are tutoring a first year student in his first course, and in the first class, first five minutes, he states that he can demolish the mathematics of quantum mechanics. Do you take him seriously?
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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by jamest » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:21 am

Xamonas Chegwé wrote: 1. The result of adding together the infinite parts as described by Zeno, be it an actual number or not, is identical to itself. (Equality is reflexive for all rational numbers)

[pre]1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ....[/pre]
It is true that adding together the finite parts of any series is identical to itself. Thus, for instance, 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16

But the point of this exercise is to prove that infinite parts of a series DO add together - that they do have a definite sum. Initially, we don't know whether (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... ) has a definite sum. Yet implicit in this basis (for the subsequent proof):

1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... = 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ....

... is the assumption that both sides of the equation DO have a sum. That's what must be implied, because if either side of the 'equals' symbol (=) does not have a sum, then there is no sense in saying that one side is equivalent to the other. That is, something that doesn't have a sum cannot be equivalent to something else that does not have a sum, except in their inability to be summed!

So, as a point of logic, I am saying that the math becomes null & void at this initial juncture, since either:

1) (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... ) does not have a sum, and therefore, it is not equivalent to anything.

2) (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + .... ) does have a sum. But, this is assumed as the basis of proving, subsequently, what that sum is.

In a nutshell, the equation reduces to this:

the sum of x = the sum of x.

That is true. But again, if x cannot be summed, then there is nothing that it is equivalent to. That is, it has no sum and so is not equivalent to anything, most of all the mirror image of its own sum. Thus, essentially, my counter reduces to claiming that there has been an irrational utilisation of the equals (=) sign.


Is this point clear? If not, I'll try to explain it better. Again, I reiterate that this is a point of logic, and has nothing to do with me not understanding the math involved.

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Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by jamest » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:25 am

LI, I'd appreciate it if you didn't feed any trolling. Thanks for your support, but he isn't going to shut up and he isn't going to take anything I say seriously. Just ignore him unless he says anything of substance.

devogue

Re: Refuting the counters to Zeno's paradox

Post by devogue » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:26 am

Zeno's arrow paradox claims that an arrow cannot ever hit the target
Tell King Harold that and show him your sums (assuming his other eye works).

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